Sh Asrar and Abu Layth on Nuzul of Jesus alayhi's salam

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Unbeknown, Jun 6, 2019.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is kufr to believe so as it rejects an explicit aayat of the qur'an.

    surah nisa'a 4:157.


    the aayat clearly negates that sayyiduna yisa alayhi's salam was either killed or crucified (regardless of the degree). alayhi's salatu wa's salam.

    note: the sentence was incorrect with a double negative. it is now updated for clarity.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
    Aqdas, Unbeknown and Ghulam Ali like this.
  2. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    Had another question regarding this. I've seen that some who call themselves Muslims say that the crucifixion mentioned in the Qur'ān al-Karīm is the type that leads to death. These people believe that a crucifixion happened but not the type that lead to death, rather, the raising happened after being put on the cross alive.

    Is there any discussion regarding the interpretation of the word crucifixion in our literature and what is the ruling on those that espouse this belief?
  3. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    Abu Layth (Nahiem Ajmal) Mockery Of The Religion

  4. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Shaykh Asrar did not make takfir. He said Abu Layth’s belief was a bidah but not kufr
  5. Tālib ul-Haq

    Tālib ul-Haq New Member

    Why is it necessary for the ulema to declare kafir someone who is a kafir?

    Because there are many Islamic rulings what are related to Muslims alone like the permission to lead the prayer and like marriage both in it being contracted and in it remaining contracted and like the laws related to inheritance.

    Further understand that the ulema do not make kafir nor can they make kafir someone who is not a kafir, the persons themselves have within them disbelief and it is the ulema who make apparent the ruling of that disbelief.

    The meaning therefore of takfeer is not making someone a kafir rather making apparent someone to be a kafir.

    Rejecting the return of Sayyiduna Isa upon Him be peace and blessings is disbelief and they who reject it have disbelieved.

  6. Tālib ul-Haq

    Tālib ul-Haq New Member

  7. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    I feel so sorry for kids who grew up in the West and looked up to clowns like these as scholars.

    Some of his fanboys say that he is the best scholar of Fiqh and Hadith in this era.
    It is a sign of Qiyamah honestly.
  8. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    then why should anyone legally accept this jaahil as a mufti?
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what do you mean? 'any works'.
    how many will be convincing?


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  10. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Abu Layth doesn’t consider Ijma’ as a legal source in Islam. He kept saying Allah and His Messenger only. Any works to prove Ijma’ is a legal source?

    Shaykh Asrar refutes this argument simply by asking how he established the Khilafat e Rashida of Sayyidina Abu Bakr and Sayyidina Ali radiyAllah anhuma
  11. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Shaykh asrar says the Hadith regarding Nuzool of Prophet Isa alaihissalam are Mutawatir Ma’nawi. What does this mean? (the ma’nawi part)

    Can we prove the Hadith are Mutawatir Ma’nawi?

    Is rejection of Mutawatir Ma’nawi: Kufr, Misguidance or Sinful (but not kufr/misguidance)?
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is two beliefs in one statement, and not one.

    1) has sayyiduna yisa alayhi's salam passed away and tasted that moment of death promised for everyone in the creation?
    2) will sayyiduna yisa alayhi's salam return to earth during final times?

    the first is against jumhur opinion, but still some sunni scholars held it.
    the second si against ahl as-sunnah and whoever rejects this is a mubtadiy Dall and out of ahl al-sunnah.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    quick read of hujjatu'l islam's sarim al-rabbani describes the following three masayil:

    1. hazrat yisa alayhi's salam was neither killed, nor crucified. this belief is from daruriyat din. anyone who believes to the contrary is a kafir.

    2. hazrat yisa alayhi's salam will descend in final days. this belief is from daruriyat of ahl al-sunnah. anyone who disbelieves this is a heretic.

    3. is hazrat yisa alayhi's salam alive? this is two pronged. we ahl al-sunnah believe that all prophets are alive vide the sahih hadith: 'anbiya are alive in their graves'. so there is no doubt that he is alive.

    the second implication of the question is whether the promise of death - the threshold that every living being should pass through; has hazrat yisa alayhi's salam crossed that threshold and tasted the promised death? the madh'hab of jumhur of ulama is that he has not passed through that promised moment of death; while one or two scholars said otherwise.


    this risalah is extracted from fatawa hamidiyyah. download from here. (this version is shown below)

    another version here. (PDF link, 13.5 MB)

    page 134:

    srm, p15.png

    page 140:

    srm, p21.png

    page 142:

    srm, p23.png

    page 177:

    srm, p58.png
  14. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    abu lies club trying to justify the comparison of nuzul of isa alayhi salam to santa clause

    Attached Files:

  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Allah! Allah! Kya qalam hai. Dono haathon se tamaache maare hain ...
  16. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Ah okay. Makes perfect sense now. Thank you.
  17. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    It is 2 different things.

    Being Alive (not having tasted death) is differed upon. So not bid'ah if disagreed.

    The descent [at end of times] is agreed upon, by consensus.
  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes, I agree. Abu Layth's etiquette is admirable. Will put a drunk monkey to shame.


    Actually, if someone holds Ajmal upside down by his boots and gives him a vigorous shake (which would really be an obliging gesture, given the imperative title 'shake Abu Layth'), they should not be surprised if they find the floor littered with all sorts of filth and a heap of hypocrisy but not a dime's worth of shame and less than a pittance of sense.

    As for knowledge, I guess a few droplets is all they will find, even if, in addition to "shaykhing" he is also passed through a lemon squeezer ... but no, let's not talk about that.

    Anyone wanna try that? Don't forget your air-purifying respirators ...
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  19. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    So having the belief that Syedna Isa passed away and won't come back is not bid'ah according to Alahazrat? And the person is still within Ahlus Sunnah?
    I might have misunderstood.
  20. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Yeah. In the end the donkey finally agreed to have an actual debate. It is truly a sign of Qiyamah that people like him have titles such as Mufti.

    He is a charlatan. His CV looks very suspicious too. Also it shows that just because someone may have studied in Syria for a couple years and claims to have ijazahs, he should not be blindly followed.
    Unbeknown likes this.

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