shaykh asrar on praying behind the imams of haramayn

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Dec 30, 2018.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    closed for the time. will open shortly.
     
  2. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    @Unbeknown
    The issues raised here are old (posted on the forum some years ago), does anyone here have a problem about student disagreeing with his teacher/shaykh?

    There you go, that solves the problem.
     
  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I don't know how this is tied to any 'debate' - past, present or future.

    as a general rule, sweeping generalizations should generally be avoided.

    I didn't know that discussing something that one has never heard before from a scholar (nor expected to) counts as 'fuss'.

    I am not here to support fitna-makers or those who might have professional jealousy against sh. asrar.

    Rather, sh. asrar is one of the few whom I consider sincere and filling big gaps from the sunni side. However, some things that he said in the last 30 minutes of this talk came as surprises to me.

    I am from India and I have never heard a single sunni scholar here espouse this opinion - quite the contrary. As it is, when I heard it, naturally, my first reaction was that of surprise and shock.

    However, I grant that my personal knowledge (or lack of it) alone is not - cannot be - the standard to judge the credibility or tenability or merit of an argument. Everyone profits from new information and learning is a life-long process - if a little understanding and patience are thrown in the mix, the internal anti-baatil immune system might discover that the idea it has taken for a malicious infection, may be just a benign variant of truth after-all.

    As such, I believe that there is no harm in discussing these issues so that one is convinced one way or the other or just agrees to disagree.

    As the world is now more connected than ever before and ideas travel at lightning-speed - the differences in convictions, preconceptions and thought processes are bound to get sharply accentuated as they come up against one another quite abruptly and the human brain likes to waste no time in pronouncing judgments and classifying them into pre-labelled boxes - things are bound to get - well, bumpy.

    It makes sense then to dissect and analyse new information with careful deliberation and patience and a lot of empathy and shoe-changes - contextualizing and questioning and weighing our own assumptions - before it is stamped with disapproval and marked 'pariah'.

    This can be done on forums such as ours as they can serve as mediums of mediation and education (I hear a lot of people snorting, but there you are).

    However, if this thread is in a danger of falling prey to trolls or arousing negative emotions and/or causing heart-breaks - then, in the interest of the sunni cause, I request the mods to delete it.

    Sincere brothers who are genuinely interested in pursuing the subject to some acceptable conclusion may please PM me and I will start a private convo with limited number of participants.


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    wa's salaam
     
  4. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    I don't know what you are trying to pull, then what's the point of the debate ?????

    i can't understand how people post such stuff to undermine the debate.

    Keep in mind Sh. Asrar is not required to follow his teachers, just like Alahazrat disagreed with Sayid Ahmad Zayni Dahlan on the issue of eman of Abu Talib, just like Alahazrat disagreed on Music with his Imam Abdul Ghani Nabulsi. The sanad of Alahazrat in Hanafi Fiqh goes through Imam Abdul Ghani Nabulsi.

    Bottom line, it's ok. why some brothers are making fuss out of it ????????
     
  5. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    English version attached.
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    1. He's never called himself Barelwi.
    2. His stance on prayer behind imams in Haramayn is the same as before.
    3. Praying anywhere (la yukallifAllahu nafsan) position is old.
    4. His teacher told him that in the early 2000's yet he still continued reading Alahazrat.

    Can you show the change?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  7. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Active Member

    I think a lot of Shaykh's positions have evolved especially in light of his preoccupation with countering Atheism and is perhaps not as stringent or inflexible in some of his positions in subsidiary issues. That said the current issue with the Deos suggest that the Shaykh is committed to promoting and defending the causes of Sunni (brailwi) Islam, especially if they are related to issues of principle. I hope this does not end up and I don't think it will but the Shaykh being labelled a Sullah Kulli. As I mentioned in another thread, we are losing scholars, especially our elders, so those who are still amongst us, we need to encourage and support. He often maintains a critical and objective view on positions, so it is no surprise that his positions have evolved.

    This is not a defence of the Shaykh in relation to the issue raised in the thread but I feel that @Sunnisoldier wanted to take the discussion in a different direction, so let us focus on whether the Shaykh's position on praying behind the Imams of haramayn has some validity. An objective discussion on the position is what is needed and I have no doubt Abu Hasan's reply will provide clarity on the issue.
     
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  8. Sunnisoldier

    Sunnisoldier New Member

    Shaykh Asrar seems to have changed his opinions on many things lately. Some of the comments he has also made in the last year or so in public have been very suprising.

    1) The claim that we should not call ourselves brailawi even though he inspired many youth to take up the title
    2) His teacher told him not to read Fatawa Ridawiyyah
    3) The awwam being able to pray in any mosque they want because Allah does not task a soul more than it is able to carry
    4) Praying behind imams in haramain
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2018
  9. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    [​IMG]

    Translation done by brother Ridawi:
    without a doubt, Salah behind a ghayr muqallid is disliked, prohibited and necessary to avoid (lazim al-ihtiraz). wherever he (ie the ghayr muqallid) is an imam and one is not capable of stopping him from leading, then a sunni should follow a sunni imam with sound belief somewhere else, even in jumu’ah if one can find another place. and if due to some constraint (majburi) one prayed or after praying he became aware, then repeat the salah even if the time has elapsed and even if some time has passed. [fatawa ridawiyyah 6/670]
     
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i started to reply to brother ridawi's post. but then got busy. will in sha'Allah try to answer his questions first.
    though this is addressed to shaykh asrar (probably), i will mention some things that i feel is my duty to share.

    i request brothers to be a bit patient. there is no need for a meltdown yet.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Sayyid Turaab ul Haqq sahib (raHimahullah):

     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    one of hashmi miyan's clips I had seen years and years ago:

     
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Should we encourage people to investigate about the beliefs of their Imam - at least those behind whom they regularly pray or not?

    upload_2018-12-25_17-43-26.png
    upload_2018-12-25_17-44-13.png
     
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    My question - if a muqtada (a religious leader whose example people emulate) is discouraged from mingling with deviants - how much more important it must be for him to not make a deviant his Imam?

    upload_2018-12-25_17-36-16.png
     
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  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes brother you are correct.

    The three groups mentioned in the fatwaa are thus:

    1. Those Muslims (scholars and laymen alike) who know that the difference between sunnis and najdis is on ususl (principles) and not furu' (branches)

    2. Those Muslims (obviously the laymen) who know that sunnis and najdis have differences but do not know that these are on principles but mistakenly think that the differences are on secondary issues - and they are so much in awe and love for the muqaddas places that the thought of avoiding jama'at does not even occur to them.

    3. The third group are the utter clueless laymen who don't even know that there is something called sunni and non-sunni. They just know that there are people who call themselves Muslims and others who don't.

    ------

    Things to note (from the portion of the fatwa posted above - don't know if there is more to it):

    1. The distinctions are regarding the people who visit the harmayn shareefayn.

    2. The fatwa doesn't make any distinctions between an Imam of the harmayn whose deviance is openly known (by his voicing it) and whose deviance is not known with such self-attested confessions. It assumes that the Imams of the harmayn - who are appointed by the najdis - are not sunnis - as a general rule.

    3. The language is cautious in regards to the second two types - that it is hoped from the Mercy of Allah ta'ala that their prayers will be accepted. It still calls them on khata or mistaken. It clearly does not make it appear like 'ignorance is bliss'.

    4. It does not say that scholars and muqtadas are allowed to pray and then repeat their prayers - I think that would count as deliberately making one's prayer makruh tehreemi (at the least). If yes, is this allowed for an aalim? Even when he is not forced?

    5. It also does not say that people should not be stopped from praying behind the Imams of harmayn tayyibayn.

    6. It's a separate issue whether it is or is not wise to try to stop a person who has no inkling of these differences. Also, whether just loitering around during jama't time makes any sense.


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  16. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    Snippets from the original fatwa in urdu

    upload_2018-12-25_16-6-55.png upload_2018-12-25_16-6-55.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Unbeknown likes this.
  17. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    The fatwa states:
    "......
    After paying attention to this opening premise the reader should now understand that when the muqtadi knows that the Imam believes that to seek aid or intercession via the Prophets (Peace be upon them) and the pious men of Allah (May Allah sanctify their noble secrets) is Shirk, and he believes that to visit the resting places of the Prophets (Peace be upon them) and the men of Allah (May Allah sanctify their noble secrets), rather to even respect such places of significance is shirk yet the muqtadi believes these [and things of the kind] to be part of his creed, then how can his prayer be considered valid behind such an imam? (Phir namaz kyunkar durust ho sakti hai?)

    Three types of muqtadi:

    All that remains now is that year after year thousands of Muslims flock towards the two noble sanctuaries to perform both the major [Hajj] and minor [Umrah] pilgrimage. What is the correct ruling regarding their prayers? We can categorise these Muslims into three categories. The first are those who are well aware that the creed of the Imams of the two noble sanctuaries opposes their creed [and are also aware of the manner in which it opposes their creed] and we have explained their respective ruling in the opening premise, such Muslims will be sure to avoid praying behind such Imams....."

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, however, my understanding says that the fatwa articulates the following points:
    1) The first group isn't specifically referring to the Ulama but includes even those laymen who are well aware that Wahabi Imams consider various valid sunni beliefs like 'Intercession' to be shirk.

    2) The fatwa questions the validity of prayer behind such Wahabi Imams and concludes that the aforementioned first group of muslims would be sure to avoid praying behind such Imams.

    A doubt: Shaykh Asrar, may Allah preserve him, seems to have defined the first group and associated hukm a little differently. Also, this is not the first time the noble shaykh has addressed this issue.

    You can download translation of the fatwa from here
     
  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    can someone please post the actual fatwaa of mawlana sa'eed kazmi sahib (raHimahullah)?
     
  19. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    Recently shaykh asrar delivered a lecture on spiritual cleansing (tazkiyyah). Towards the end, when asked to clarify his stance on the taqlid issue, he made some comments regarding praying behind the imams of the Haramayn.

    link to speech: https://archive.org/details/TazkiyaShaykhAsrarRashidMasjidENoor2018

    These are his words transcribed (from 1:30:00):

    when you go to umrah, some people do not pray behind the imams of the haram. why do they not pray? because they know something regarding them, they are dissatisfied regarding their beliefs. is everyone obligated to do that or is everyone obligated according to their knowledge. everyone is obligated according to their knowledge. so when they are going, a man accompanies them who doesn’t even understand the basics of salah. he doesn’t know how many sharait, how many arkan [...] if someone doesn’t know his sharait and arkan of salah and he doesn’t know wajibat of salah, and first time he is going makkah mukarramah, he is very happy - what will be the first thing you tell him, that did you know that you cannot pray behind the imams. will he come back to Preston to stay with you or will he go somewhere else. the answer is he will leave.

    so everyone is tasked according to their level. so what some people do, they go on umrah, they tell all their umrah group you cannot pray behind these imams. so whenever salah time comes - by the way people don’t listen to them - when the salah time comes, i’ve seen this first hand, they are found in the hotel lounge, the azan is going on - and by the way the moazzin of al-masjid al-nabawi he’s a sunni muslim - but they’ll be sitting down in the lounge and everyone is going where? to the salah. is this wisdom? the answer is no. they observe me at the time of azan, i am going to the masjid with the people and i am even standing behind their imam and praying. so straight away he’s a sulhkulli. but you will notice even people like al-sayyid irfan shah, when he goes you will see him standing behind the imam. those who are obligated know what is happening, why?

    because allamah saeed ahmad kazmi wrote a fatwa. he was asked regarding this issue. he said: the people that go to the haram are three categories - number one are the scholars, the ulema, they must follow what they know. if they know the imam has a deviant belief, their prayer is not done if their belief is kufr. if the belief is not kufr, then they must repeat the prayer. the second category is those tullab al-ilm, students of knowledge and the people of knowledge who associate with those people of knowledge and the public who associate with them. the third category of people are the majority of the muslims who do not even understand these issues, their prayers are done.

    why are their prayers done? because their similitude is like [...] a man who goes into the desert to pray and he has a group of people. what do you do when you do not know the direction of the qibla, you do taharri - investigating the direction. one man does taharri and he prays north the other one prays south but it’s dark, they can’t see one another. the one facing north leads the prayer. the other one facing south prays behind him. is his prayer done? why is it done, because he doesn’t know regarding the imam facing the wrong direction.

    a second example: the imam comes to lead the prayer but the imam has a stain of a big impurity on his trousers or anywhere else that you can imagine. is it unseen? the answer is yes. is the salah done of the people behind him. the answer is yes. now in both cases, if people have knowledge regarding this stain, then is their prayer done? no. if the person has knowledge that the imam is facing a different direction to me then is his prayer done? no. so everyone is tasked according to their ability.

    ------------
    the fatwa of mawlana saeed ahmad kazmi cited by shaykh asrar doesn’t mention the second category as he does. the second category in the fatwa is regarding those who affirm the fact that the imams oppose part of our creed but are unaware of the heinous manner in which they have.

    as a consequence of the speech and his remarks, especially his own action of going to the haram at the time of salah, caused confusion among the public who were present and some even said later that ignorance is indeed bliss. some students asked me whether it is allowed to pray behind the imams of the Haramayn and in their (deobandi/wahabi) masajid in the UK as a result of this speech.

    some questions:

    1. is it correct that we should not inform the public that they should not pray behind the imams of Haramayn?
    2. does it mean that the majority of muslims should be left to pray behind their imams?
    3. is it correct, especially for the ulema to go to the main masajid in haramayn at jama’at time? or for them to stand behind the imams even if they are not truly praying?
    4. is it correct to say the salah of the public who are unaware of the deviance of the imam is correct without being told to repeat it?
    5. If, as he says, the ulema (which would include him) know of the deviance of the imams of the Haramayn, why would he go to the masjid and stand behind their imam and pray?
    from fatawa ridawiyyah:
    without a doubt, Salah behind a ghayr muqallid is disliked, prohibited and necessary to avoid (lazim al-ihtiraz). wherever he (ie the ghayr muqallid) is an imam and one is not capable of stopping him from leading, then a sunni should follow a sunni imam with sound belief somewhere else, even in jumu’ah if one can find another place. and if due to some constraint (majburi) one prayed or after praying he became aware, then repeat the salah even if the time has elapsed and even if some time has passed. [fatawa ridawiyyah 6/670]
     

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