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Discussion in 'Tarikh' started by sunnistudent, Nov 28, 2011.
yes, the story that you are giving is also what is presented by nasbis on their website.
Yes, please do that, with quotes and reference.
The story which you are presenting that this umm kulthum is not that umm kulthum who was the daughter of Ali rd, was also given by shia on their website.
But I shall wait, when you can come with quotes and reference. Please note, Iddah is after marriage, followed by the death of the husband.
A request : Like other thread, please do not make claims without reference.
there are a number of candidates for the true identity of that umm kulthum. actually, there are about three little girls that hazrat umar wanted to marry. for example, umm kulthum the daughter of hazrat abu bakr but hazrat ayesha refused her rishta because she little, etc.
umm kultum, the daughter of Seyyeda Fatima(s) was never married to hazrat Umar (r). in sunan nasai umm kulthum dies in few years before Karbala and her janaza is being read by Abu Hurayra and Imam hasan and Imam Hussain are also in that janaza.
now, who was the umm kulthum that was with Seyyeda Zaynab(s) in Karbala? who was that umm kulthum that gave those khutbas? of all people, allama murtaza zabidi tells us about one such khutba.
I think, when I have time, I will present the full picture and all the details about it.
in your quotes from shia, which you present as authentic according to shia, in their books it is famous that 'awwalu farjin....that the first lady that they usurped or snatched from us......the shia idea is not that marriage took place but that hazrat umar snatched her from ahl al-bayt!
it is also reported in sunni literature that when hazrat umar asked for the rishta imam ali said that she is for my brother's son. etc.
Here is a reply from a shia majalla ( scholar) .
I made a claim and gave ahadith to back up my claim. I also said the hadith is sahih as per shia standards. Now if you think, this is wrong, then you should prove that the hadith is weak or mawdu.
I have given the complete arabic hadith text with english translation and no shia can object to any of these ahadith because all these ahadith are sahih. There is no question of back fire.
so you will not provide the date when janab e seyyeda died because that would have been an eye-opener.
those references from usul al-kafi, the first one, from the sixth Imam(a) says seyyeda umm kulthum was snatched from us...surely, if you present shia references as accurate then why just take where it says nikah took place but that she was snathced from ahl al-bayt? so refernces from shia backfire!
Translation is available on internet
Abu Abdullah said about the marriage of umm Kulthum : 'that was the vagina which we were forced to give".
Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said:
“When [Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he [Umar] met Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.”
Imam Jafar as-Sadiq: “I asked him about a woman whose husband died: ‘Should she spend her ‘iddah in her house, or where she wants to?’ He [the Imam] replied, ‘Where she wants to. When Umar died, Ali came and took Umm Kulthoom to his house.’”
I do not want to open books to answer this. All the hadith quoted above are sahih as per shia rijal standards.
if it is not too much to ask, can you tell me when seyyeda Umm Kulthum (s) died? and who read her janaza?
Narrations from shia hadith book called " Al Kafi", which proves that Sayyeda Umm Kulthum Rd ( Daughter of Sayyedina Ali Rd) was marrried to Sayyedina Umar Rd.
[FONT="]9536 -1- [/FONT][FONT="]علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، وحماد، عن زرارة، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) في تزويج أم كلثوم فقال: إن ذلك فرج غصبناه[/FONT] http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-5/14.htm#14
[FONT="]9537-2-[/FONT][FONT="]محمد بن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: لما خطب إليه قال له أمير المؤمنين: إنها صبية قال: فلقى العباس فقال له: مالي أبي بأس؟ قال: وماذاك؟ قال خطبت إلى ابن اخيك فردني أما والله لاعورن زمزم (4) ولا أدع لكم مكرمة إلا هدمتهاو لاقيمن عليه شاهدين بأنه سرق ولاقطعن يمينه فأتاه العباس فأخبره وسأله أن يجعل الامر إليه فجعله إليه [/FONT]
[FONT="](1 10902) حميد بن زياد، عن ابن سماعة، عن محمد بن زياد، عن عبدالله بن سنان، ومعاوية ابن عمار، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: سألته عن المرأة المتوفى عنها زوجها أتعتد في بيتها أو حيث شاءت؟ قال: بل حيث شاءت، إن عليا (عليه السلام) لما توفي عمر أتى أم كلثوم فانطلق بها إلى بيته[/FONT]
inshshallah, english translation will be provided.
1. You might find this useful
2. Many sunni scholars have also recorded this marriage. Imam Ibn Sa'ad in his al tabaqat al Qubra has also recorded this. ( Vol 8/ Beirut Edition)
3. In shia books, this marriage is recorded at four places in shia hadith book called " al kafi". All the narrators are trustworthy as per shia rijal standards. The narrations have been called 'sahih' by shia hadith scholars. This apart from more than 8 other shia hadith and history books.
Al kafi is online in arabic for those who want to check.
Did Shaykh Haddad provide any references/quote from authentic books?
Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim
The Marriage of `Umar ibn al-Khattab with Umm Kulthum bint `Ali Allah be well-pleased with all of them
by GF Haddad - Muharram 1425
The marriage of `Umar with Umm Kulthum al-Hashimiyya (6 - 49) the daughter of `Ali and Fatima took place on the year 17 of the Hijra. `Ali gave her away to `Umar upon his request although he was afraid at first that `Umar might not accept her due to her youth and because he wished her to marry one of her cousins among the sons of Ja`far ibn Abi Talib. But `Umar said, “Marry her to me for I swear I have toward her more dedication to excellent companionship than any man on the face of the earth.”
`Umar gave her a dowry of 40,000 dirhams in honor of her lineage to the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace.
He came to the Muhajirun among the Companions as they sat between the Grave and the Pulpit – their usual place for meeting `Umar to discuss news: “Felicitate this newlywed!” Then he told them he had married `Ali's daughter Umm Kulthum and said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say upon him blessings and peace: “Every lineage and means will be severed on the Day of Judgment except my lineage and my means.” I have kept company with him and wished to add this also.' Later he again said, on the pulpit: 'Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say upon him blessings and peace: “On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.”
It is well-known that our liege-lord `Umar ibn al-Khattab :ra:Allah be well-pleased with him, had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following additional reports:
(a) Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al- `Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him: "Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him