Thanks for all your replies. I would need some time myself to read all that you have suggested, so maybe we can continue when we both are ready.
i must apologise that i cannot write more on this issue at present. perhaps, when i get time... but do read the explanation of the maturidi position in both rawdah al-bahiyyah and shaykh-zadah's naZm al-farayid. also, distich 48-49 of jawharah and its sharh: wa `indana li'l `abdi kasbun kullifaa wa lam yakun mu'ath'iran fa'l ta'rifaa fa laysa majburan wa la'khtiyaraa wa laysa kullan yaf'alu'khtiyaraa ---- shaykh bajuri has a good explanation. but shaykh laqani's explanation is more comprehensive and more accessible to people like us. ulama say that it is eventually a semantic difference; and is about how 'kasb' is defined. Allah ta'ala knows best.
Yes, I have heard that before, and the way I see it now, the answer to my question lies in that very explanation; but I wonder, owing to its intricacy and subtlety, if two different individuals would come to the same understanding regarding the matter after reading it all. Did not mention about kasb, that humans have the kasb and Allah creates the action such as the explanation I quoted from GF Haddad's website; that would have simplified the matter for us, but instead he writes that the will a man has is created by Allah (which is what I had learnt prior to reading Aala hadrat's book on the subject). That is what I was looking for, whether there is an ikhtelaaf on the the matter of predestination between the two schools, and now that you mention that there is, so for the sake of clarity, so would I be fair in saying, that the two schools differ regarding predestination, in a way that while the ash'aari school says that the action is created by Allah as well the will preceding it, while maturidi view being, the action is created by Allah but the kasb preceding it is our own? Btw, I happened to read a comment on sunnianswers, where someone mentions Shaykh Al Buti classifying the Ash’ari scholars as Jabri on the issue of human will. While, I do not agree with such a view, but if shaykh buti really made that statement, then it only shows a clear disagreement between the schools on this subject. Whether the disagreement or ikhtelaaf is legitimate or simply a consequence of misunderstanding is a moot point, however.
mawlana khalid naqshbandi has a risalah on this very topic: al-iqd al-jawhari. manuscript can be found here: http://www.al-mostafa.info/data/arabic/depot/gap.php?file=m010653.pdf
your question, has been asked already and it is said that imam ash'ari's explanation of the issue is so complicated and intricate, and has such subtlely and nuance, that an idiom has been coined to that effect: 'adaqqu min kasbi'l ash'ari' "more nuanced than ash'ari's explanation of kasb'. [see rawDat al-bahiyyah, issue #7] just for clarification: did not mention what? --- you must have missed it. it is indeed one of the 13 differences. you can find an explanation in rawdah al-bahiyyah (issue #7), naZm al-farayid, musayarah etc.
subHanAllah this is one of the topics that humbles us makes us (believing muslims) aware of our insignificance and powerlessness and the Absolute Transcendence, Perfection and Independence of our Creator ta'ala.
sure, that is understood. i am not being belligerent either. my question is also to discuss, so i expect you will take it that way.
Before I proceed, let me assure you, my intentions are to learn not to debate. I am a nobody who is trying to understand the matter, as this is part of our faith, in fact an article of faith itself. All I am trying to do is understand it properly as far as humanly possible. So it would be better, if you deem my posts as questions instead of assertions from my side aimed at refuting people in the forum. Now, coming to the point you raised. There is neither absolute free will nor compulsion. To say we have absolute free will is the way of the mutazila. I have learnt, as I mentioned earlier, that sunni belief is between absolute free will and compulsion. Regarding kasb ( which I think is translated as acquisition in english), I have few things to say or ask regarding that. Firstly, there are those who mention ( and correct me if I'm wrong)that kasb is what humans have, while the action is created by Allah. From GF Haddad's website: "So then Who is the Creator of the acts of obedience? Allah. And Who is the Creator of the acts of disobedience? Allah. But to what does reward and punishment apply? Reward and punishment do not apply to the actual deed which is created by Allah, but to the resolution (al-qasd), the "earning" (al-kasb)". Now my question is, since even our intentions are created, therefore isn't kasb or resolution created as well? Secondly, why didn't Aala hadrat mention it in his book on the subject? His explanation seems no different from what Abu Adam of sunnianswers wrote. Someone commented while discussing this topic on sunnianswers: “This is one of the Points were Asharis and Maturidis differ, Maturidis say, that Qasb ist something which comes with the will and determination of Human, but Ashariis say, like you do, that the Qasb is predestinated through predestination." https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/q-a-someone-asked-is-it-just-for-allah-to-make-one-a-muslim-and-reward-him-and-one-a-hindu-and-punish-him/#comments So my final question, is this really a matter of ikhtilaaf between the two schools? Abu Adam does not think so( I tried looking at the 13 differences between the ashaari and maaturidi school, but this was not one of them). All your explanations seem to suggest either of the two situations: one, there is indeed an ikhtilaaf on the matter, in which I case, I won't even bother looking further; or, there is no ikhtilaaf and one is right and the other is wrong, and I intend to find out which one is it.
imam tahawi says in his aqidah: ============ the matters of predestination cannot be understood; just as one does not understand the meaning of istiwa and other aayat mutashabihat, one should believe in qaDa and qadar and leave the rest. let us stop wrestling with unknowns, and tackle what is known. not even a kafir will deny that we can choose to do something or not; this is within the context of what we can know, is understood. the debate whether it is an absolute choice, or whether it is influenced or whether it is pre-destined and involuntary is beside the fact. so we should do what we can understand - fighting imaginary battles* is futile and a waste of time. besides, any sane person - muslim or kafir - will not dispute that you have the choice to do something. so one should make the right choices, such as choosing to do good. this will counter the devilish whispering that "if Allah ta'ala Willed me to do good, i would do so; and since He has not, i will not". here, the fallacy is, that the person assumes that it is Divine Will forcing him to do evil - yet, he KNOWS that he has the choice not to commit a sin, but still commits the sin blaming an external factor. --- Allah ta'ala knows best. *since we have acknowledged that we cannot know what is meant by these apparently conflicting statements, our attempts to 'defend' or 'refute' are only based on objections arising out of imaginary premises and conflicts. for example, suppose a person owes me money and he has been delaying it. he has been avoiding me and is not answering my calls. this could be for a number of reasons - he is a crook and he does not wish to return it; he has fallen into hard times and does not have the money; he has forgotten it; he wants to negotiate a lesser amount; he wants to negotiate a later date; etc. etc. one could pick each of the possibilities and argue back and forth - "if he says this, and i will reply thus..." but when you meet him, it could be an entirely different reason outside your list. all the time you were slaying imaginary monsters.
so where does free-will and kasab go? how is it different from shaykh sha'arawi's explanation? === you quoted taHawiyyah, and here is an explanation from sharH al-kabir of shaykh sayid foudeh. if i find time, i will translate it in sha'Allah. pg: 795 pg. 797: pg. 799:
True. As mentioned in aqidah tahawiyya, the exact nature of the decree is Allah's secret in His creation; delving into is and reflecting too much about it is wrong and leads to loss. However, that does not mean one changes the meaning or explains it wrongly just because one is incapable of fully comprehending it, and that is what is being done when someone explains the matter in such a way that he ends up denying the will and decree of Allah, as is the case with some people. So we believe that everything happens according to Allah's decree and will, and the only will we have is what He wills for us, while also acknowledging that we can not fully comprehend how this works, but sadly this is now how the oft repeated explanation goes, such as the one here (around 5:56) :
firyabi: http://ia601407.us.archive.org/14/items/kadar_feryabi/kadar_feryabi.pdf bayhaqi: https://archive.org/download/waq67197waq/67197.pdf ibn atayillah al sakandari: https://archive.org/download/attanwir_fi_isqat_tadbir/attanwir_fi_isqat_tadbir.pdf
first of all, humans cannot fully comprehend how this works. you may be accosted by atheists and modernists who sneer on religion, barking that they won't believe in something they cannot understand; but know that there are a zillion things we do not know and we can never know. though believers in the religion of scientism make a brave attempt of passing of conjecture as fact. --- anyway, one must acknowledge that there are things we cannot know.
Jazāk Allāhu Khayran for your response. I have, in fact, looked up the archives on the forum, but I think the topic has not been discussed in detail, specifically concerning the point I am trying to highlight here, so decided to make a new thread. Exactly. We must believe in Allah's knowledge and His decree both, and the quoted explanation seems like a denial of the divine decree itself, and therefore problematic. So, what do you suggest should be done? This incomplete and erroneous explanation is pretty widespread, and a nobody like me can't be expected to go correcting elders in our community. Regarding atheists and the theory of 'determinism', I haven't gone into much detail as to the exact nature of their belief, but it seems like this has been the case since the time of Einstein who also refused to believe in human free will. One infamous atheist of our time has even written a book refuting this notion of human free will. I guess, Benjamin Libet's experiment in the 1980s, (where it was demonstrated that the conscious voluntary decision made by the person in the experiment was preceded by unconscious processes in the brain over which the person had no control), serves as proof against the belief in free will, though, interestingly, Libet himself did not reject the possibility of choice for humans, but discussing all of that would be digressing from the topic at hand.
wa 'alaykum as salaam first of all, jazkAllahu khayran for posting the translation of alahazrat's fatwa on the subject. I did not know that he (raHimahullah) had written on it or I would not have looked in so many places. (The translation needs editing though). I have read shaykh abu adam's answer on this and the answer by shaykh asrar and the same is stated by mufti amjad 'ali sahib (raHimahullah) in the Bahaar (edit: I just noticed that he has been quoted at the makashfa link you have posted). You have understood it correctly brother. There are threads dealing with this topic. You may look up the archives if you wish to explore more. check this too: http://tanwir.org/?p=770 this sounds like fore-knowledge and not pre-ordainment. wa's salaam p.s: dunno if you are aware but there is a group of atheists who believe in absolute predestination. they call it "determinism" and they argue that the laws of physics imply that we are no different than robots or stones - even if we perceive otherwise.
Assalaamu alaykum. I was hoping the knowledgeable brothers in the forum would help me with this topic of predestination and the often quoted explanation given by some( if not all) urdu speaking sunnis. The standard response I hear on the subject of predestination is like this : As per His Knowledge, He has written all good and bad as they are to happen and as it was to be done. It is not so, that we have to do as He has written, but He has written as we would to do. Thus If Allah wrote bad for a certain person, then it was because that person was to do bad. If he was to do good, then Allah would have written good for him. His writing did not force any person to do anything. This is known as Taqdeer. ( translation from : https://makashfa.wordpress.com/2013/09/09/concept-of-predestination-in-islam/#comment-9677 ) I did not find the exact explanation in Ala hadrat's book on the subject, which can be read here : http://www.thesunniway.com/index.ph...ew=file&id=3-divine-decree-and-predestination When one says that, It is not so, that we have to do as He has written( as in the explanation above), is it not denying His will and decree? Sunni belief is that everything happens according to Allah's decree and will, and the will that we have is created by Allah, as Ala hadrat himself states in his book “…. the same will, the same power which every body sees in himself, when it is found with reason and intellect becomes the base of commands, reward, and punishment accountability and judgment. This will and power, undoubtedly and definitely, have been created by Allah Almighty as man has been.”( page 17) The way I learnt it, is that the sunni belief is between the two extremes, i.e, between absolute free will and compulsion. Meaning, for any action we are held accountable for, we don’t believe we have absolute free will nor do we believe we are being compelled or forced to do it, rather it is somewhere between the two, which is the belief that we have a choice and will to do it, while also believing that this choice and will is created by Allah. ( Abu Adam of sunnianswers also has explained it like that) Please read Shaykh Asrar's answer here: http://www.seekerspath.co.uk/question-bank/belief-aqaaid/q-id0085-fate-and-destiny/ ; his answer is similar to Abu Adam's, but seems to be at odds with the explanation offered by others, such as those from DI, and so forth. Hope the brothers shall respond.
