Sunni Proselytization

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Ethical_Barelvi, Oct 11, 2020.

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  1. Ethical_Barelvi

    Ethical_Barelvi Active Member

    Interesting experience. On a grassroots level one needs to understand social demographics and the quality of work carried out.

    Would love to to talk to you privately.
     
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    that's actually the magic number (age-wise) for proselytizing.

    It's an intersection of two generations.

    These guys will be affected themselves and also influence their own generation, regardless if they become du3at or regular guys with day jobs or businesses.

    At the same time, being of the marriageable age mostly, they will also certainly impact the children they bring into the world.

    Plus they have the time and understanding on their side.

    A lower age group won't necessarily have the mental or emotional sophistication to understand the objectives of the maslak and fikr. A higher age group won't have some extra expendable time on its hands that the youf generally does.
     
  3. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Can this be applied to Islam and Sunniyat? Islam and Sufism?
    There is plenty to suggest the simpler, clear message is Islam and these terms are the confusing environment allowing the Pir industry to flourish
     
  4. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Specifically on Fadak, Khata & Masoomiyat issue, I haven't seen/heard Sayyidi AlaHazrat being quoted or invoked by Sayyid Irfan Shah (anti-Jalali) camp. And how could they? There's nothing in Ala Hazrat's (or his disciples) writings/works to support their thesis.

    On the other hand, Dr Jalali and his camp have frequently cited Bahar-e-Shariat, and other reliable sunni texts. So Ala Hazrat (and his maslak) continues to be the touchstone.

    Naaras, lofty titles, salaam etc. will fool few/many people now and then, but can't fool all.

    Pir industry will surely die under its own weight of ignorance. In India, except for Bareilly & Kichaucha sharif, sajjada nasheens and pirs of khanqahs are reduced to being khadims and even stray public sees them as obscure, greedy nuisance. Within a generation, same will happen to Pakistani pir industry. I don't even see any beard (beyond 5 o'clock shadow) on any of young sajjada nasheens sofa-seated in recent Irfan Shah gatherings at several khanqahs.
     
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  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    but what do you do when both sides of the fight claim to be flag bearers of Fikre Raza and Maslake Ala Hazrat and the muftis and ulema (not counting pirs and naatkhwans) are asleep?

    most ulema are not well versed with Ala Hazrat's books and methodology, let alone common people.

    tahiris too recite Salame Raza and read from Hadaiqe Bakhshish. even in this idiotic debacle, Irfan Shah's mureeds have been calling him a paiker of Fikre Raza. See their comments on social media.

    Shamsheere Ala Hazrat's are in fact lower status pirs than Irfan Shah. I don't know how many Shamsheere Ala Hazrat's and Hafize Hadaiqe Bahshish's i have seen in the recent past on social media.

    knowledge is the only answer and the piri industry is dead against it. they will do anything except organized teaching to the masses and working at grassroots level, assuming they are even qualified to disburse knowledge of the Maslak. this debacle is a prime example of just how "knowledgeable" our popular pirs are)

    people who are in the field of learning/Darse Nizami are mostly lost within the confines of the madaris. this fadak-khata episode is a good example of it. if the madaris and muftis wanted, they could have nipped it in the bud and prevented the issue from spiraling out of control right at the start.

    wahabis and deobandis specifically focus on indoctrinating their "fikr" and "maslak" into the 17-25 yrs old demographic, regardless if they're common folks or students in madaris, or whoever. it is their clearly stated objective in many institutes or jamats. it is for a clear purpose and reason - that they are focused on building their "maslak" and "fikr" for the current and next generation to come.

    we lack the ability, actually we don't care, to indoctrinate the actual substance of the Maslak and Fikr of Ala Hazrat. like zombies, we're content with shouting slogans and raising our hands at these idiotic "seminars" (notekhwani notwithstanding). forget about pirs and naatkhwans, just tell any mufti saab to speak against naarebazi in our gatherings and he will bring you all sorts of daleels on all sorts of things how it is mibah and we can't stop people from it. how can you be so shameless to prevent a Muslim from uttering "Subhan Allah" at a rabble rousing speech by a pir? what face will you show Allah on judgment day having prevented thousands of people from yelling Subhan Allah at a pir's gathering? tell the same person about teaching core Sunni aqaid and basic fiqh, and watch him cry over lack of resources and lack of interest by awam.
     
  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Islam will always remain "traditional" (i.e. adhering to established practices). Message of Islam is immutable; it can't be tampered or tempered to suit the modern temper. Discourse can't be lowered just to suit the (prevailing) low taste.

    An example of repackaging/tampering the message. Buddhism tried reinventing itself as zen, a new age religion, to cater to the growing disillusionment with materialism in the west. After some initial, sporadic success, it has come to nought. In trying to repackage, the whole package has unraveled. What is zen, nobody can define with clarity anymore; the new message is a caricature of original, confusion abounds, and the message as good as lost. Lesson #1: Don't dilute/mute the message.

    Effective communication of message is dependent on means/medium (channel of communication) and method. So what needs to be changed with changing times is not the message, but the medium and method.

    In the modern time, message of Islam has to utilise every medium (TV, internet, social platforms etc.). Initially, the message (of ahl us-Sunnah belief) was late to jump on to the new medium and that space was quickly usurped by deviants and the medium/media became saturated with wrong message. To mainstream the right message, the space on medium needs to be dominated. Lesson #2: Don't miss any medium.

    This brings us to method, which we have been discussing animatedly in this thread. Old methods, old messengers are proving ineffective in new times. Clue, we need to change the method. More active outreach, better organisation, relevant engagement. Lesson #3: Don't be afraid to shed old methods.


    3Ms in Modern times. It is not the message in need of modernisation (as some misguided people are attempting), but the method and the medium.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Of late, a disturbing trend (in my opinion) in the UK is to try to make Sunni masajids a hip and happening place.

    Few large masajids (which are not space/resource constrained) are now furnishing/kitting out social rooms, complete with pool/snooker & table tennis tables, indoor games etc. Every evening (especially weekends) youngsters in the 11-25 years age bracket are invited to attend, play, socialise and hang out. After an hour or so of social activities, a short dars and relevant talks are arranged (mainly on aqidah or socially relevant topics that Aqdas has listed in the other thread). The evening ends with refreshments, typically pizza and snacks (all on masjids budget). For example, my local masjid has recently bought an adjoining golf club guesthouse for £1.3mn with aim to convert and operate it as community centre.

    The key motivation is to induce youngsters to hang out in safe environs of masjid (rather than on the streets), while playing and learning. Of the handful of masajids in my area running this initiative, I am yet to see any evidence of positive youth engagement. I'm also not sure how sticky these engagements are for long-term attainment of objective.

    Call me old-fashioned puritan; but I find it a misplaced, crass initiative to instill and impart right message/values.
    One, it lowers the dignity of a place of worship;
    secondly, it uses very "odd" incentives (some of these pastimes are at odds with Islamic teachings);
    more often than not, in-house/invited speakers are not the right role models or well qualified to deliver lectures


    Is this a right model of engagement with youth? Will this alleviate the current problem? Can this model be improved upon to achieve the goal?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  8. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    As someone born, raised, and educated in the US, i agree 100% with you. Its better to maintain dignity of speech and proper choice of words when discussing topics such as aqeedah and the like, since it creates an environment for the students to take that subject seriously and not as some type of topic to joke around with. Also, why the need to mention rooney and amir khan alongside aqeedah? That doesnt even make sense. Unless one is trying to distinguish between different types of kuffar and fussaq using examples. Wallahu Alam.
     
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    One thing I find a real put-off with the new crop of UK-bred and UK-trained (mostly from Jamia al-Karam), new-gen scholars who attempt to connect with youngsters by using the street lingo (such as "innit", "bro", etc etc.). Just to relate to the audience why does the discourse (on serious aqidah or related matter) have to be degraded by using street vernacular? What's need to pepper talk with references to Rooney, Man Utd, Amir Khan etc.? May be, it's just me (an oldie, who hasn't been educated in UK) taking an issue with this, and that it actually works. Who knows?

    I have never heard Shaykh Asrar employ this type of language, but then he always wears a very serious demeanor.

    ---

    There's need to combine outreach/contact programmes in streets/chowks/marketplace/universities with short series of classes (aqidah/fiqh/akhlaq). One without the other will not succeed. One needs to bring the religion to the doorstep (i.e. water to the horse, if the latter can't be dragged to water).

    Looking from outside (since I am not close to realities on the ground) it appears that it is important to "catch 'em young" at the university/college (sixth-form) level when the actual poison (salafism) or corruption (permissive liberalism) starts to take root. How active are sunni organisations at this level? Muslim student associations are dominated by salafi/TJ oriented functionaries. Same is the case with MSAs in US universities.

    Also, girls/young ladies shouldn't be ignored from the equation.

    proselytisers of tomorrow can't be informal, voluntary bunch. It needs to be well-oiled machinery/organisation with even paid functionaries, clear agenda/action plan, KPIs, monitoring. There's no harm in adopting the best practices from others (christians/JW/mormons or TJs/salafis). Bit like DI in organisation, but modern in mindset and approach (where DI fails to be relatable). Madni kafila is not for everyone. Even if one can't get the invitee to change the huliya (sunnah dressing, beard etc.), least should be gradual nudge towards understanding of what's right/wrong.

    In one of his talks, I could sense Shaykh Asrar's deep admiration for DI's outreach.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  10. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Some valid points made.

    To be fair, people like Shaykh Asrar are creating the proselytisers for tomorrow.

    For me, the topmost priority in the UK is to produce ulama to the likes of Shaykh Asrar. We haven't done much tabligh except in masjids and then too, how relevant have speeches been?

    Grassroots was to have aqidah and fiqh classes en masse so that every young Muslim knew his or her fundamentals and confident enough in their Islam. And these classes had to be marketed much like compulsory service.

    Presentation skills are very important. Our speakers and teachers must learn how to be very engaging and one way that would really help is selecting hot topics. I'll post a list I made.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Parents are to blame, who else? Those parents who had the right intention but poor execution; only in these cases "inevitable" could have been averted (in all other cases, degradation was bound to happen).

    Tabligh is a lost, frowned upon duty/service (except for few sunni organisations, DI, SDI etc.). Ulemas are passive (forget being proactive, they are not even reactive). Is it any surprise that TJs and salafis are far more successful in herding people into their folds due to their dawah programmes (no matter how misplaced these may be)?

    All us keyboard warriors consider it infra dig to go out for tabligh and spread the message. We lack the training. I routinely get waylaid by mormons & jehowah witness missionaries (who are among the most predatory Christian proselytisers). Even though they can be brushed off, I can't but help admire them for their unlimited perseverance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  12. SunniSaifi

    SunniSaifi New Member

    Abu Sulayman, what you wrote touched my heart. It is exactly as you mentioned, yes we need ulama to teach us the deen, and elaborating the rulings for us, but 95% of muslim youth, is unreachable, for them its all about bling bling, cars, girls and etc. After working with youth in nearly 7 years, i become frustrated and i am feeling we are living in the wrong part of the world, if we want to protect our iman. It is not going to become better, but only much worse, muslims is having a severe spiritual crisis in the west, the reason is the overhelming majority and the system destroying you within, but i will not give up, we are people of strength, and insha a Ll ah with Allahs help, i hope we choose the right decisions for the future of our youth, even if it leads to leaving the west.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  13. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    Having re-read my post I think it’s not fair not my intention to solely blame the ulema. Most people only went to them for a few years if that to read the Quran. Or they invite them to their home to do a khatm when someone dies. The parents aren’t to blame either because they just were too busy earning enough for their families to eat and probably just expected that their kids would stay the same as they were in terms of their religion. They didn’t account for the role the greater society has on a person. So who can we blame? I have no idea. I think it’s just inevitable that second and third generations eventually become assimilated into the society their grand/parents moved to. People will still remain Muslims but increasingly culturally so only.
     
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  14. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    I am a long time lurker but rarely post. I don’t know about the situation in India or Pakistan but in the UK it is simply this: vast majority of people who call themselves Sunni Muslims will not have heard of any of the people that are mentioned routinely on this forum or any other Islamic forum. Most of them don’t pray except maybe once in a while on a Friday and on the two eids. The more religious will maybe go to some naat conferences once a year. As for all the issues people have on here about intricate aqidah issues let me tell you 99.9% of the Muslims in the UK not only have no clue what you are talking about but they don’t even care. The truth is in practice almost all second and third generation Muslims have become completely secularized in how they view religion. Even those who practice and pray 5 times a day will only say I’m a Sunni but if you try to ascertain if they are Barelwis or Deobandis or Salafiis etc they have no clue. So in a way these forums are totally unrepresentative of the British Muslim reality as it is in practice. They are just a place where people who are really into discussing the minutiae of religious matters on creed ca hang out online.

    so AbdalQadir is right in a way. The ulema have failed. No one apart from people who are really already religious takes their views seriously. Especially not desi ones who can’t speak English or speak with heavy accents. They can’t connect to the younger generations.

    as for maajid nawaz no one takes him seriously but the reality is that his views represent probably what most Muslims in the Uk (not including those who’ve just arrived from Muslim countries either for work or via marriage) actually believe. In that sense Abu Hassan is right to give up on his generation and the next gen.

    Also I have to say if anyone was to come and read this forum from amongst the common Muslims they’d think what planet are these guys on?

    Most Muslims care more about what Salman Khan thinks than what (name any Sunni Pir or alim here) thinks. Asrar Rashid is a good brother but he only is relevant to those who are already deeply religious like those on this forum. Most Muslims in the UK would be like Asrar who?

    The sad reality is that Muslims are like any other community in the Uk. People especially Muslims from overseas don’t realise how deeply irreligious the Uk is as a society now. Not irreligious but non religious. It’s a post religious society. Muslims who grew up here still believe in Allah but they are deeply deeply affected by the larger society to the extent that the views of someone like Abu Layth are actually what most people believe in practice whether or not they’d say that in public. Every survey done shows that the number of Muslims leaving Islam is getting bigger each year.

    the blame is only partially on the ulema for being stuck in their own little bubbles and for years not doing anything at grassroots level and only caring about the same old deobandi Barelwi rivalries which are totally irrelevant to anyone living in the West. (Of course people on here will disagree).

    I don’t know if anyone is aware of the US tv series called Ramy? It’s the most accurate depiction of how most Muslims in the west are living Islam. The Muslim role models that most people are even aware of are more likely to be Bollywood actors and sportsmen like khabib the MMA fighter and Amir Khan the boxer.

    sad but true. The solution? I have no idea. Just wait for Imam Mahdi (atfs) I guess!
     
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have given up on the past generation and my generation.

    i don't remember if i wrote it here or to a friend, it is like this: when i was young and saw the state of sunnis upclose, i gave up on that generation. i said, we must focus on our generation. and years flew by doing nothing and we became old; neither did we learn much, nor did we give any benefit (which we dreamed of in our youth), nor have we been of any use. i had to accept our naa-kaami [and our nikamma hona]. i gave up on my generation. i said, we should do something for the next generation. but it doesn't appear that we are capable of doing much - except pray that the new generation does not slack like us.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
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  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Came across this on majid nawaz of quilliam foundation

    https://5pillarsuk.com/2020/07/18/m...IOXCw-lJyk-08WY8j4VjP21QoQAH8n2PQipP8RaJiO7Bw

    https://5pillarsuk.com/2020/08/07/m...270-NS-2UxuNuhyOUHRZGF6dOt513CPABP6cQrYSrDauA

    regardless of the soundness of his apology or his sorrow at the plight of the Uiyghurs, what have Sunnis done to proselytize SUNNIYAT to these kind of liberals, secularists, perennialists etc. who have positioned themselves as real or perceived community well-wishers, leaders and social activists*?

    should someone fluent in english like Asrar Rashid (and others like him) meet with this guy (or others like him) and offer him some religious counseling? (it's idiotic to expect some commercial peeri-mureedi-peddlers like paqs, supposedly an english-medium phd, or irfan shah to have a half meaningful conversation with people like these)

    *i have deliberately NOT used the word "reformers", because the so-called reformers position themselves as scholars - people like tim winters, atabeck, that abu layth punk and so on. these kind of people (majid nawaz types) do not position themselves as scholars

    carrying on with the Asrar Rashid example, is it a more fruitful bet for him to counsel these kind of people, as opposed to entertaining the likes of those two deobandi clowns, abu layth, atabeck and so on?

    i'm mentioning Asrar Rashid only as an example, because i'm not much aware of other native level english speaking Sunni mashayekh in uk who are practical and for all their faults, are at least trying to work at grassroots level with minority Muslim life in the west. don't make this thread out to be about criticizing or appraising him

    if someone of a religious learning background, who focuses only on religious learning and aqaid and fiqh etc, can offer proper counseling to some social activists like this, then that will also be beneficial to the community from the other angle of social and political interests, economic activities, and so on.

    come to think of it, even in india or pakistan too, the mawlanas are blissfully unaware of practical ground realities of the intellectual or other requirements of the awam at a grassroots level. that, or they just don't bother to stray from the tried and tested formula of selling peerdom.

    am i making sense here or just wasting time?
     

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