the ruling of the beard according to hanafi fiqh

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by kaydani1, May 21, 2017.

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  1. kaydani1

    kaydani1 Active Member

  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    "not conceivable" is about as academic as it gets.

    and "dude" is the modern academic equivalent of the olde english "sir"

    another academic argument - whine and throw a tantrum and hey, argument proved!

    lol
     
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  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    start a new thread please. and please don't spam this thread when it is clearly marked "hanafi".

    fine. readers will judge. mere denial cannot change the fact, no matter how vociferously you contend.

    yeah, zabidi wasted paper and he should have taken tips from you on what is hujjah and what is not. it is unfortunate that zabidi did not have eminent thinkers like yourself to coach him on how to compile a book.

    also, you write as if you are basirqadri's twin, unless you are the same person. so when are you embarking on a purge of all fiqh books that mention other opinions?

    btw, it'Haf is a sharh of iHya. just so that you know - and there is no monopoly of shafiyis on iHya nor is it useless for Hanafis.

    don't waste your time. now that i have seen your depth, i won't waste mine. wa's salam.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  4. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    That's not true. Just because you say distorted, it doesn't become distorted. Secondly, why would Hanafi scholars quote Shafi, Maliki, Hanbali scholars when they aren't Hujjah or can be used as Hujjah. Waste of paper and time unless there is another reason which you don't want to the readers to know which will blow up your preconceived notions, that you can take the Rajih Qawl.

    anyway dude, it is not conceivable that all 100,000+ sahaba had Minimum and Maximum length of beard as HANDFUL or FISTFUL, if that is your definition of beard (minimum and max lenght handful or fistful otherwise it is not appropriate beard)

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sub'HanAllah.

    please read your own quote. you have yourself quoted from zabidi's it'haf and quoted it in a distorted fashion.
    i am just correcting it, as a response to your accusation that i didn't read/understand the citation, which you posted twice.

    as for subki, iraqi etc - it is pertinent to that discussion and in the context of what other posters have said.

    besides, please get this right: our position is only according to Hanafi fuqaha, and that the prescribed length of the beard is fist-length. notice the title of the thread.
     
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  6. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    @Bazdawi @abu Hasan


    I don't understand why you Abu Hasan quote Imams Ibn Subki, Iraqi, Subki and other shafi in some of his threads, and I also don't understand why would Imam Murtaza Zabidi who is a hanafi quoting Maliki scholars.

    Still waiting for Abu Hasan or Bazdawi to answer

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    no did not.

    even in qurtubi's and qadi iyad's citation that you have mentioned once again, it is proof for fist-length. other than the fact that neither qurtubi nor qadi iyad are hanafis.

    you must understand the context of the statement and the age in which it was made. there was a time when wearing a beard WAS the normal and even fussaq and apostates did not shave their beards as it was deemed unmanly. so qaDi iyaD, talking about it 900 years ago might not be the same as hamza yusuf talking about it in a room full of clean shaven muslims.
    looks like you have not noticed wahabis, who do not trim their beard and leave it very long and grizzly. the statement above says, and below i am pasting it with the right emphasis:

    The scholar al-Qurtubi said in his Mufham: To cut the beard, to pluck it, and to cut most of it is not allowed. Qadhi Iyaadh has said: To cut the beard from length is “recommended” and to make it so long till the point where fun is made of it, is“disliked” similarly to cut it (excessively) is also “disliked” The early scholars have differed whether there is any limit for cutting the beard or not?​

    Some scholars said: There is no limit prescribed for it, however it should not be made so long that it reaches a point where fun is made of, so some of it should be cut.​

    ----
    i tried to highlight the emphasis but sadly, the above quote is incomplete and if deliberate, it is dishonest.

    here is what zabidi said, from the exact page number that has been cited (i.e., it is the same edition):

    it'Haf sadah al-muttaqin, volume 2 page 419:

    it'hafzabidi, v2p419.png


    =====

    ...al-iraqi deduced from this, that the majority position (jumhur) is to leave the beard untouched, just as it is and not to trim it at all; and this is the position of shafiyi and his companions.

    qaDi iyaD said that it is disliked to shave the beard or to trim it or to distort it [taHrif]; qurtubi in his mufhim said: it is impermissible [laa yajuz] to shave the beard, nor pluck it, nor trim most of it.

    qadi iyad said: to trim it along its length is a good thing [meaning not letting it go excessively lengthy; consistent with the fist-length premise]
     
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  8. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    perhaps you are unaware but if you had bothered to read the title, we are discussing the hanafi position; or maybe you are under the assumption that imam qurtubi al-maliki, qadi iyad al-maliki and imam malik were hanafis.
     
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  9. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    Brother, I think you are not reading the entire text, you are just selecting what suits your purpose.

    From my post again:
    The scholar al-Qurtubi said in his Mufham: To cut the beard, to pluck it, and to cut most of it is not allowed. Qadhi Iyaadh has said: To cut the beard from length is “recommended” and to make it so long till the point where fun is made of it, is“disliked” similarly to cut it (excessively) is also “disliked” The early scholars have differed whether there is any limit for cutting the beard or not?

    Some scholars said: There is no limit prescribed for it, however it should not be made so long that it reaches a point where fun is made of, so some of it should be cut.

    Imam al-Malik has called “excessive length” of beard as “disliked” whereas some have put the limit of fistful for it and said: If the beard exceeds fistful then it should be cut, whereas others said: It is “disliked” to cut it except during Hajj or Umra. [Allama Sayyid Muhammad Murtaza al-Zubaydi Hussaini al-Hanafi, in Itihaaf as Sa’adat al Mutaqeen (2/419), Published by Matba Maymana, Egypt]

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  10. Inwardreflection

    Inwardreflection Well-Known Member

    Arguing about the beard is arguing about whether to follow a Sunnah. Allah loves those who follow the Sunnah and the extent of that love being exponential to the degree to which a person follows the Sunnah in general. That is why the Sufiya Ikraam have reached what They reached as they are the people of Sunnah who have become drowned in the Ocean of the Sunnah reaching the Ocean bed and are anchored to it in a way they will never again be allowed to come up for air. For these people, they see the missing of even one Sunnah akin to punishment and the severing of a major life dependant limb.

    So rather than look at the length of the beard only, rather ask how many Sunnahs are attached to this one Sunnah and ask that you be honoured with Them all for arguing is what wastes time and distracts you from Worship. This is a subtle trap. those who argue on the beard seem to be finding an excuse and a way out but you should find every way in.

    Allah Knows Best
     
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  11. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    @ashrafisunni maybe you wouldnt have felt the need to copy and paste mawlana saeedis views if you had bothered to read even some of what i wrote. you should try actually reading some time - its not injurious to health; i promise!
     
  12. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    Definition of five-o'clock shadow
    1. : the beginning of a beard that shows up late in the afternoon on the face of a man who has not shaved since morning
    (for those people who may have missed the idiom)
     
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  13. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    :) didn't get what you hinted at? what has beard length to do with prayer times?
     
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if you have noticed, all the citations you've posted (assuming they are accurate) are proofs for fist-length. i wonder how people ignore the obvious and try to insist that it is proof for five o'clock shadow.
     
  15. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    The discussion amongst jurists of Hanafi school in regards to issue of “FISTFUL (beard)” Some latter scholars have called fistful to be necessary. Shaykh Abdul Haq Muhadith Dhelvi was the first one to call fistful as necessary (wajib), however this is the personal
    opinion of this researching scholar, however all our other jurists have written that fistful is “masnoon (sunnah)” and that which scholar Ibn Hammam has written: And to reduce (i.e. major part of beard) just like some westerners and heterosexuals do is not allowed (mubah) according to anyone [Allama Kamal ud din Ibn Hammam, in Fath ul Qadeer (2/270)]

    Some scholars say that in this statement Imam Ibn Hammam has called fistful as necessary (wajib), however, this is not correct. First of all this statement is not in regards to fistful but is rather in regards to “major or prevalent part of the beard” and this is separate from issue of fistful. Secondly, this is correct as none has called this Mubah (allowed) but at the same time no one has called cutting the beard less than
    fistful as haram or prohibitively disliked either until or unless the Wujoob (necessity) of fistful is established. Thirdly, Imam Ibn Hammam has said on same page that the Sunnah in regards to beard is Fistful and this is a categorical proof on the point that fistful is “sunnah not wajib”
    The scholar Ibn Hammam writes: The Sunnah in beard is fistful. [ibid] This is why it is necessary to interpret the second saying of Imam Ibn Hammam, so that his two statements do not become contradictory. This interpretation is that: Permissibility is in the category of being recommended, “hence none has called this Mubah” this means “that none has called this as praiseworthy” which means that none has called it praiseworthy to cut the beard less than fistful because the recommended way is that beard should be kept fistful, rather it is a Sunnah to keep such a long beard that it covers the upper part of chest as it has come in hadiths that the beard if Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) used to cover his chest, and this saying of some scholars is not correct that long beard establishes less intellect. This statement could only be said by that person who has not tasted the sweetness of Prophetic love. This way the scholar Ayni, Ibn Hammam and scholar Ibn Nakheem who have extracted from Nihayah that it is necessary to cut the beard after fistful is also not correct, except if this interpretation is made to prove the meaning of necessity (wajib) just like the scholar Alauddin Haskafi has given this interpretation. [Allama Muhammad bin Ali bin Muhammad Haskafi, in Dur ul Mukhtar ala Hamish Rad ul Mukhtar (2/155), Published
    by Matba Uthmaniyyah, Istanbul, Turkey]
    Similarly, Sayyid Abul Ala Mawdoodi is incorrect to write “In my opinion, somebody’s beard being small or big has no real effect if the emotions of sacrificing your lives and giving total obedience is scarce, then be sure that length of beard will have no benefit to you. [Syed Abul Ala Mawdoodi in Rasail o Masail (1/153), Published by Islamic Publishers, Lahore, Pakistan]
    It states in Qur’an al Majeed: So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see (reward) of it, And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see (punishment) of it. [Surah al-Zalzalah: 7-8]
    This is why anyone who in love of the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) keeps a long beard in order to follow the Sunnah will get reward for it, however if he followed his Nafs and did some sins due to satan overpowering him then he shall be liable for their punishment. Syed Mawdoodi’s this statement is in direct opposition of Qur’an. Some scholars have derived proof from this statement of Dur-e-Mukhtar in regards to necessity of keeping fistful (beard):

    And this is why the author of al-Bazaziyyah said: It is forbidden for man to cut his beard, the reasoning for this is that men resemble one another. [Allama Alauddin Muhammad bin Ali bin Muhammad al-Haskafi, In Dur ul Mukhtar ala Hamish Radul Mukhtar (5/359), Published by Matba Uthmaniyyah, Istanbul, Turkey] When cutting the beard is forbidden then fistful becomes necessary, but this deduction
    is not correct because there is no mention of fistful in this statement nor is it forbidden to cut the beard in totality. The scholar Ibn Bazzaz Kardari has mentioned this statement in context of women imitating men and similarly men imitating women.
    [Allama Muhammad Shahab ud din Ibn Bazzaz Kardari, in Fatawa Bazaziyah ala Hamishil Hindiyyah (6/379), Published by Bolaaq, Egypt]
    And women shall be imitated by cutting the beard when whole of the beard is cut, and to cut the beard completely is Haram even according to us whereas it is necessary to keep beard in totality.


    see the attachment for discussion.
     
  16. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    I think this issue of beard is similar to the issue of Photos and Video Recording. Some follow Alahazrat like Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan and some do not like Mufti Ilyas Qadri. So there is difference of opinion on this issue.

    Sidi Faqir has mentioned Arab Hanafi Scholars who wrote on trimming or shortening the beard. You can check the thread here http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/the-length-of-the-beard.5397/

    I don't see the reason why we need to put Hazrat Gulam Rasool on the spotlight.


    The hadiths and sayings regarding trimming the beard:
    Imam Abu Hanifa narrates with his chain, that once Abu Qahafa came in the presence
    of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in a state that the hair of his beard
    were scattered, the narrator says: The Prophet said: I Wish you reduce (these hair) and
    pointed towards the ends of his beard. [Imam Abu Hanifa, Nauman bin Thabit in
    Musnad Imam al-Adham, Page # 359, Published Muhammad Sa’eed and sons, Karachi]
    This hadith is also narrated by Imam Abu Yusuf [Imam Abu Yusuf Yaqoob bin Ibrahim,
    Kitaab ul Athaar, Page # 234, Published by Maktaba al Asriyyah, Sangla Hill]

    And Imam Abu Yusuf narrates:
    Ibrahim Nakha’i said: There is no harm in reducing the beard for a man, provided there
    is no resemblance with the polytheists [Imam Abu Yusuf Yaqoob bin Ibrahim, Kitaab ul
    Athaar, Page # 235, Published by Maktaba al Asriyyah, Sangla Hill]

    Imam Abu Yusuf narrates:
    Nafi said that Respected Ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) used to reduce some
    of his beard. [Imam Abu Yusuf Yaqoob bin Ibrahim, Kitaab ul Athaar, Page # 234]
    There is no restriction of holding (beard) in fist and according to jurists of Hanafi
    school the Mutlaq is not attributed to Muqayyid

    Nafi said that the respected Ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) used to heat the
    iron and put mark on his body and also used to get blown over due to poison and
    also reduce some of the beard. [Imam Abu Yusuf Yaqub bin Ibrahim, Kitaab ul Athaar,
    Page # 435]


    The opinion of Hanafi jurists in regards to the length of beard:
    The scholar Badr ud din Ayni al-Hanafi writes:
    The scholar al-Kaki said: In our view the length of beard is equivalent to one fistful, and
    to cut the beard in excess to that is “wajib (necessary)” Abu Musa Ishaq has narrated in
    his al-Jami’ that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to reduce his
    beard by cutting it from its length, Imam at-Tirmidhi has also narrated that the
    Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) used to cut his beard from the length and
    width.
    I, (Badr ud din Ayni) say that this hadith is not a proof that Prophet used to cut his
    beard after fistful, however yes there are 2 Athaar (sayings) narrated in this regard.
    Imam Abu Dawood and Nasai’i have narrated that the respected Ibn Umar (may Allah
    be pleased with him) used to cut his beard after fistful. Imam al-Bukhari has also
    narrated this in “Ta’leeq” form and Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah has narrated that
    respected Abu Hurraira (may Allah be pleased with him) used to cut his beard after
    fistful, however these Athaar (sayings of Sahaba) are opposing the hadith (saying of
    Prophet) which says: Trim your moustaches and let the beard grow (Sahih Bukhari,
    Sahih Muslim) so this answer is possible that meaning of increasing the beard is that
    whole beard should not be cut like the Majus (star worshippers) used to do. The proof
    for this is that Imam al-Muslim has narrated from respected Abu Hurraira (may Allah
    be pleased with him): Trim your moustaches, lengthen your beards and do opposite to
    the Majus (end of hadith) because Majus used to shave off their beards and leave the
    moustaches without cutting them at all.
    It is in Muheet that there is difference of opinion in regards to lengthening the beard,
    some scholars said: Leave the beard till the beard becomes big and thick whereas to
    reduce it by cutting it is Sunnah i.e. the beard which is more than fistful only that
    should be cut. [Allama Badr ud din Abu Muhammad Mehmood bin Ahmed Ayni, in
    Binayah (1/1344-1345), Published by Manshi Noh Lakshore, Lachknow India]
    So the scholar ‘Ayni writes:
    If asked what is the meaning of ﻰﺤﻠﻟااﻮﻔﻋا because as you know ءﺎﻔﻋا refers to Katheer
    (abundant/many), hence if beard is left as it is then it will get extremely long from
    length and width and the people would make fun of it. The answer to this is:
    Lengthening the beard is forbidden and to cut it is “necessary (wajib)” whereas the
    early scholars have differed on its limit. They said: When the beard increases more than
    fistful in length and scatters in width then it is “qabih (bad)”


    The respected Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates: He saw that one man
    had left his beard (as it is), he pulled his beard and said: Bring scissors to me, then a
    man said what is below his hand should be cut. Then (Umar) said: Go and make your
    hair in order or make them irregular, does anyone from you leave himself like this as if
    he is a beast amongst beasts?
    Respected Abu Hurraira (may Allah be pleased with him) used to cut his beard after
    grasp of hand. Respected Ibn Umar has also narrated exactly like this and some
    scholars have said: Cut your beard from length and width but do not cut it too much,
    they have not put any limit for this, however according to me the meaning of
    this is that till the time the beard does not exceed the (prevalent)
    culture and habit of people then it should not be cut.
    Ata’ said: When the beard becomes long and big then there is no harm in cutting it
    slightly from length and width, the proof for this comes from Imam at-Tirmidhi’s
    narration that Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) used to cut his beard from
    length and width. [Allama Badr ud din Abu Muhammad Mehmood bin Ahmed Ayni, in
    Umdat ul Qari (22/46-47), Published by Idaratul Taba’tul al-Muniriyyah, Egypt]
    The scholar al-Zubaydi al-Hanafi writes:
    This hadith (let your beards grow) has been taken as proof by majority, they said it is
    superior to leave the beards as they are and they should not be cut at all. Imam ashShafi’I
    and his companions have this saying too. Qadhi Iyaadh al Maliki has said: To cut or removebeard is “disliked”


    The scholar al-Qurtubi said in his Mufham: To cut the beard, to pluck it, and to cut most
    of it is not allowed. Qadhi Iyaadh has said: To cut the beard from length is
    “recommended” and to make it so long till the point where fun is made of it, is
    “disliked” similarly to cut it (excessively) is also “disliked” The early scholars have
    differed whether there is any limit for cutting the beard or not? Some scholars said:
    There is no limit prescribed for it, however it should not be made so long that it reaches
    a point where fun is made of, so some of it should be cut.
    Imam al-Malik has called “excessive length” of beard as “disliked” whereas some have
    put the limit of fistful for it and said: If the beard exceeds fistful then it should be cut,
    whereas others said: It is “disliked” to cut it except during Hajj or Umra. [Allama Sayyid
    Muhammad Murtaza al-Zubaydi Hussaini al-Hanafi, in Itihaaf as Sa’adat al Mutaqeen
    (2/419), Published by Matba Maymana, Egypt]
    There is clear proof in this statement that according to majority of scholars it is
    superior to lengthen the beard, which tells us that to reduce the beard by cutting it is
    against superiority but not forbidden (Haram)

    Mullah Ali Qari al-Hanafi writes:
    It is in Nihayah Sharh al Hidayah:
    In our viewpoint the length of beard is only fistful and it is necessary to cut the beard
    after fistful. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) used to cut his beard from
    length and width. This hadith is narrated by Abu Isa (Tirmidhi) in his Jami’ and the
    glory of man lies in his beard to be lesser. Mullah Ali Qari said: Whether the author of
    Nihayah calling it “necessary to cut the beard” comes in category of being “rightful” or
    it comes in category of being “prescribed Sunnah (Sunnat al Mu’akidah)” because to
    call the cutting of beard after fistful as “necessary in totality” is not correct. [Mullah Ali
    bin Sultan Muhammad al-Qari al-Hanafi, in Mirqaat (8/298), Published by Maktaba al
    Imdadiyyah, Multan, Pakistan]

    The scholar Ibn Hammam writes:
    It is in Nihayah that to cut the beard after fistful is necessary (wajib). Imam Abu Isa
    Tirmidhi has narrated in his Jami’ that the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him)
    used to cut his beard from length and width. If this criticism is made that it is in Sahih
    Bukhari and Sahih Muslim from Ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that the
    Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Trim your moustaches and lengthen your beards, so
    cutting the beard is against the order of lengthening it, the answer to this will be: The
    narrator of this hadith is respected Ibn Umar whereas he used to himself cut the beard
    after fistful, this hadith is narrated by Imam Muhammad in his Kitaab ul Athaar, Imam
    Abu Dawood, Imam an Nasai have also narrated it in their Sunnan, whereas Imam alBukhari has mentioned it in the “ta’leeq” form.


    Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah has narrated that respected Abu Hurraira (may Allah be pleased
    with him) used to cut off his beard which exceeded the length of being fistful. Here the
    practice of narrator is contrary to his own narration. Hence this is not to be attributed
    to Naskh (which can be abrogated) as it is in our principle ﻰﺤﻠﻟااﻮﻔﻋا و on which this shall
    be attributed. Instead of cutting the beard completely or to cut the majority of beard, it
    should be left (as it is) just like it is the way of foreigner Majus who cut their beards
    (completely) and this is also seen amongst Hindus and Farangis (European personnel)
    and now even ordinary Muslims have adopted this way, they cut off their beards and
    some go completely against the saying of Prophet by keeping long moustaches while
    cutting off the beards ( انوﻌﺟار ﮫﯾﻟا ﺎﻧاو , ﺎﻧ ), hence this way these narrations can have
    correspondence (meaning: To cut the beard slightly would not be against ﻰﺤﻠﻟااﻮﻔﻋا و
    because it does not mean to increase your beard comprehensively, rather to keep a full
    beard or to keep most part of the beard, this is understood from the hadith of Sahih
    Muslim in which Abu Hurraira narrates that the Prophet said: Trim your moustaches
    and lengthen your beards, do opposite to the Mujoos (this sentence is in the reasoning
    of Illat) and to reduce more (meaning major part of the beard) just like some
    westerners and heterosexuals (Hijra) do, hence nobody has called this Mubah
    (merely permissible). [Allama Kamal ud din Ibn Hammam, in Fath ul Qadeer (2/270),
    Published by Nooriyah Ridhwiyyah, Sukkar, Pakistan]

    The scholar Ibn Nakheem has also summarized this statement and said: That which is
    written in Nihayah that it is necessary to cut the beard after fistful, this means that if
    someone leaves the beard (i.e. does not cut at all) then he will be sinful. [Allama Zayn
    ud din Ibn Makheem al-Hanafi, in his Bahr al Rai (2/270), Published by Maktaba
    Ilmiyyah, Egypt]
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    objection#4: there are a few ways in which something can be proven as wajib and the beard is not proven as wajib by any of them.

    answer#4:
    yes, there are several ways. one of those being a command by the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam to do something and there is nothing to indicate against its wujub. there are numerous hadith wherein the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam commanded the people to grow their beards. this is known to even those who do not accept the wujub of the beard.

    another way of proving the wujub of something is if the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam continually did a thing and he never left this action. for He sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam would surely have left it at least once to show it is not necessary as He sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam did for itikaf.

    allama ibn humam mentions this in fath al-qadir 1/243:

    Screenshot_20170516-020606.jpg

    'a proof of something being wajib is if the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam did not even abandon this action even once.'
    and elsewhere, he mentions it again in bab al-itikaf, 2/394.

    Screenshot_20170516-022526.jpg

    'and this continuity in doing an action without ever leaving it, combined with the fact he never refuted those companions who did not do such a thing, is a proof of it being sunnah; or else it is a proof of wujub'

    allama babarti/babirti mentions it in inayah sharh al-hidayah, 1/kitab al-taharah, sunan al wudu.

    Screenshot_20170516-024934.jpg

    'and continuity with occasionally leaving it out is a proof of it being sunnah and without ever leaving it out is a proof of wujub.'
    allama shalbi his hashiya of tabyiyn al-haqayiq 1/4

    Screenshot_20170516-030046.jpg

    allama shaami in radd al-muhtar 2/49

    Screenshot_20170516-033642.jpg

    so now we understand that for something to be established as wajib, the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam must:

    1) do this action continuously
    2) never once leave it
    3) reprimanding those who do not do it

    now unless mufti sahib qibla has a narration in which the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam stopped growing it (to less than a fistful) OR that the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam once trimmed his beard to less than a fistul OR that the companions used to trim their beards then the wujub has been established.

    mawlana saeedi sahib entirely dismisses the notion that it could be wajib and rather, he choses to interpret many hanafi texts to suit his understanding.

    mawlana saeedi sahib, despite his many scholarly works, was a human being. he wasnt a prophet or a messenger. he can be mistaken in his opinion (as he was). he has been accepted as commentator on the quran and a sharih of the sahihayn. he hasnt been accepted as a faqih nor does he have any renowned book of fatawa. now if someone is insistent on believing he was masoom or thinking that he was some sort of mujtahid mutlaq then rather then forcing mawlana saeedis opinion on the dozen ibarāt, they should just make tawil of his statements and interpret his statement 'beard is not wajib' to mean 'the fistful beard is not wajib itiqadi' and his statement 'beard is sunnah' to mean 'beard is sunnah as it is the way of the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam'
     

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    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  18. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Active Member

    objection#3: the scholars have mentioned that a fistful is sunnah and therefore, it cannot be wajib.

    answer#3: as i have briefly mentioned before, the fuqaha were using the word masnoon to implicity (and explicity in some cases) reply to the argument of some ulema who waid - 'iýfā literally means to leave and to allow so we must let the beards grow as much as they can without touching them'

    so masnoon was used to describe the fiyl of the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam in reply to those who considered it impermissible to trim the beard AT ALL. anyone who knows arabic and looks over these ibarāt, keeping in mind the ikhtilaf i mentioned, will instantly realise that using the word/phrase [قدر الوجوب] would be, best case scenario, rather weird and in the worst case scenario it would be stupid.

    this is because both camps of ulema agreed that at least a fistful was wajib. let me demonstrate in English both possible cases.

    scenario number 1
    Scholar1: iýfā means 'leave it alone and allow it to grow' therefore we must not trim our beards. the necessary length pertaining to the beard is however much it grows.
    Scholar2: but the wajib length of a beard is a fistful.

    scenario number 2
    Scholar1: iýfā means 'leave it alone and allow it to grow' therefore we must not trim our beards. the necessary length pertaining to the beard is however much it grows.
    Scholar2: but the sunnah length of a beard is a fistful.
    Scholar1: good point.

    so, anyone can see that using the word wajib length would not actually make sense in light of the entire discussion and background of the argument.

    now, this is a logical reply. as for those who say that: the fistful cannot possibly be wajib as there is 'tasreeh' that fistful is masnoon and so it is 'nass' that fistful is sunna and not wajib.

    well clearly, once again the ibarat of imam shurunbulali dismisses this false notion because he has used the word masnoon to describe the beard and he has also explicity started it is impermissible to trim to less than a fistful.

    now, will we also object against imam shurunbulali and exclaim that something cannot possibly be wajib and sunnah at the same time? the tatbiq between the usage of masnoon and 'لم يبحه احد' is as i mentioned above. masnoon is being used in the meaning of fiyl of the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam which does not negate something being wajib. otherwise, it was also a sunnah (in the linguistic sense) of rasoolAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam to pray salah, to fast, to perform hajj etc. does this in anyway negate the obligation of these actions?

    so this seeming contradiction which mawlana saeedi sahib saw was just his opinion. we know that he wrote a tafsir and shuruh on the sahihayn but he was not some expert faqih per se. Allah forgive him his errors.

    note: don't mind me saying he wasn't an expert faqih because the truth is, he wasn't. plus, he used the same wording with regards to shaykh abdul haqq dihlawi and i am sure he didnt intend disrespect. neither do i.
     
  19. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed New Member

    Further references to show the wujoob of the beard



    al-Muhaddith Shaykh ’Abd al-Haqq Dihlawi (d.1052 AH) in his sharh, Ashi’at al-Lam’at: اعفاء اللحية یعنی دوسریچیز ڈاڑھی بڑھانا ہے۔ مشہور یہ ہے کہ ایک مشت ہو۔ اس سے کم نہ ہونی چاہیے، پھر ایکمشت سے بڑھانا بھی جائز ہے۔بشرطیکہ حدِ اعتدال سے لمبی نہ ہو۔ اور اگر ایک مشت سےلمبی ہو جائے تو پھر بعض کے نزدیک کم کرنامکروہ ہے۔ امام حسن بصری اور قتادہ کا یہی مذہب ہے۔ اور بعض کے نزدیک ایک مشت سے زیادہکا کاٹ دینا مستحسن ہے۔امام شافعی اور امام ابن سیرین رحمہما اللہ تعالی کا یہی مذہب ہے۔ ڈاڑھیمونڈانا حرام اور فرنگیوں، ہندووٴں اور قلندروں کا طریقہ ہے اور ایک مشت رکھناواجب و ضروری ہے اور یہ جو ایک مشت ڈاڑھی کے لیے سنّت کا لفظ مشہور ہے تو اسسنّت سے دین کا طریقہ مراد ہے، یعنی ایک مشت ڈاڑھی رکھنا دینِ اسلام کا بتایا ہوا طریقہ ہے۔ یا اس بنا پر اسے سنّت کہا گیا ہے کہ ایکمشت ڈاڑھی رکھنا سنّت سے ثابت ہے جیسے نمازِ عید کو سنّت کہا گیا ہے۔
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  20. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed New Member

    This is the quote for reference:

    ولا يفعل لتطويل اللحية إذا كانت بقدر المسنون وهو القبضة كما في البرهان والقبضة بضم القاف قال في النهاية وما وراء ذلك يجب قطعه هكذا عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه كان يأخذ من اللحية من طولها وعرضها وأما الأخذ من اللحية ، وهي دون القبضة كما يفعله بعض المغاربة ومخنثة الرجال فلم يبحه أحد وأخذ كلها فعل مجوس الأعاجم واليهود والهنود وبعض أجناس الإفرنج كما في الفتح

     

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