The Sunni Creed regarding the Knowledge of Allah and His Messenger ﷺ

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Feb 3, 2019.

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  1. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    It makes sense to assume even the question was actually false. It is a strange question to begin with. Since the Imam was accused in his lifetime of a similar belief its not far fetched that the question was not genuine. Or it was a exaggerated allegation upon someone else with a view to tell the person his view was kufr.

    It is also absolutely possible that the answer of Alahazrat was in the context of a more normal belief, however if you look at words mentioned in the question and answer it makes it difficult to accept this with certainty. To the extent that if you say withholding from takfir was in the context you mentioned here then it can be said you are rejected the fatwa as it is presented since the wording is explicit.
     
  2. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    I did say this earlier and planned to leave the matter at that but some evidences and reaction and replies of others opened the discussion up to all possible interpretations

     
  3. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    So in truth if anyone has an issue it should be on the statement:
    "takfir is withheld from who believes in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge."
     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what exactly is not clear? that alahazrat unequivocally says that the comparison of the knowledge of Allah ta'ala and that of his entire creation is like comparing billions of oceans to a billionth drop of water?

    is this very confusing to you?

    please don't attibute to alahazrat something that is a fancy of your own mind. alahazrat did not say "it is not shirk to believe in ata'i equal".

    he only said, we do not do takfir of a person who said "the knowledge of Allah and RasulAllah are equal" PROVIDED he believes the knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is granted, bestowed (ata'ee). and nowhere did he justify that statement. he clearly repudiated it as false and termed it absolutely wrong. furthermore, he explained the actual aqidah. this caution is misread by disgruntled people who are desperate to find something against alahazrat and attempting to create a narrative that "alahazrat said that: It is not shirk to believe in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge or any other sifat." sub'HanAllah. this is a manifest slander.

    so who is indulging in extrapolations?

    just because you cannot understand something, you want to reject the fatwa? people should know their worth and try 'not to punch above their weight'.

    reading a couple of english/urdu translations of beginner guides will not make you eligible to criticise ulama who are experts of kalam.

    alahazrat NEVER advocated that there is any equality between the Creator and His creation in ANY matter. withholding from takfir is in the context of the person might be talking about ma kana wa ma yakun and not the absolute knowledge of Allah ta'ala. and by definition, ata'ee negates equality.

    dhati is unique, His own, eternal without beginning, never-ceasingly eternal, infinite, all-encompassing, necessary (wajib), never changing (mumtani'y al-taghayyur), not subject to Divine Power.

    ata'ee is haadith (accident), which means it came into existence at some point and then it is possible for it to end (mumkin al-fanaa); it is created, it is subject to Divine Power, it keeps changing (increases or decreases) and it is finite.

    now if someone claims that it is equal - he is utterly wrong and his claim is absolutely rejected. but out of caution alahazrat withholds from takfir. just like the claim of 'possibility of falsehood in Divine Speech'.

    speak for yourself and your poor understanding.

    why don't you read al-dawlatu'l makkiyyah?


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    at last. welcome out of the closet, must have felt too stuffy in there, eh?
     
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  6. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    Is no ta'wil or rejection of the fatwa possible? We need to look on this side of things.

    Its a clear misunderstanding, error or maybe even an interpolation.
     
  7. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    The answer is actually not clear. This is an issue we should be clear on for sake of Allah.

    Its shirk to believe in ata'i/bestowed equal with Allah in knowledge or any other sifat.
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    according to alahazrat's fatwa based on certain assumptions (and assuming ta'wil can be made).
     
  9. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    When it is specific to knowledge?
     
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    when it is generalised, certainly it is.
     
  11. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    But is that belief kufr?
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as you can see from gangohi's fatwa, if there is a scope for ta'wil, then one can withhold from takfir. even though, alahazrat's own fatwa implies that if a person attributes knowledge of unseen (to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) without being granted, such a person will be ruled kafir. [it implies from the clause: takfir cannot be done so long as he believes that such knowledge was bestowed]

    in alahazrat's fatwa, he withheld from takfir as there is certainly room for ta'wil.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    just to end this one here.

    gangohi's fatwa attributes a flaw to Allah ta'ala and considers such a person to be a muslim who says that Allah ta'ala has in fact, lied. furthermore, gangohi affirms that: "wuqu' e kazib ke ma'ani durust" it is thus validated that falsehood has indeed transpired in the speech of Allah. thereby questions the very truth of the qur'an. (if he HAS lied, how can you trust the qur'an?)

    contrast this with:
    alahazrat's fatwa withholds from making takfir of a person who made a mistaken claim that Allah ta'ala gave all knowledge to His beloved (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) such that it is the same (musaawaat) as His Knowledge.

    but alahazrat clearly unequivocally refutes that claim and says: this is absolutely rejected and withheld from takfir so long as the person believes it to be granted. furthermore, he clarifies that the knowledge of the entire creation including all the prophets, in comparison to Divine Knowledge is like a billionth part of a drop of water compared to a billion oceans.


    FR v14p377.png


    ===
    there is no comparison to gangohi's fatwa. in fact, on the same issue, gangohi claims that even if one claims knowledge without being bestowed, EVEN then you cannot do takfir! see fatawa rashidiyah (new edition, p.241)

    FwRash, p241.png


    ===
    in alahazrat's fatwa, the person who made the claim in the first place did not claim that nabi sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was equal to Allah; he claimed that the knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was equal to Divine Knowledge (al-iyadhu billah). alahazrat withheld from takfir ONLY IF he believed it by the bestowing of Allah ta'ala.

    TO's statement generalises this very specific misunderstood issue to equality with Allah - which is no doubt shirk/polytheism. and attributes this generalised statement to alahazrat.

    alahazrat did not make takfir if a person believes barabari/equality is bestowed

    alahazrat did not make takfir of a person who believed that knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was equal to Knowledge of Allah, provided he also believed it to be bestowed.

    ---
    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  14. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    I agree, It doesn't make it proven. Seeing the similarities is subjective to one's opinions. The claim has its similarities that I picked up on (this is my opinion) but it will also have its differences. I understand and agree to that. I will personally retract from that if and when I can
     
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    just what I have been saying, wordplay has been going on since the start.

    This is a cat and mouse game - one moment he comes out all certain about everything and has read and understood everything (even listened to pir irfan shah sahib, think of that!) and another moment he is this poor confused person who is trying to make sense of an apparently contradictory position which is absolute shirk and yet not takfir-able and is still being fed by some nameless sunni facebookers to God knows whom.

    And then any reference to devband is described as 'not mine but yes, could be and would be and why not and I think but dare not say and will still call it plausible in the next post' and swing from one branch to next and do a backflip all in plain sight and yet claim that I am not aware of my own games.

    I envy these guys who have endless hours to waste and here we are struggling for time to do constructive work.
     
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    just by making a claim doesn't make it validated truth.
     
  17. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    Although it's not a trap from me, there is a similarity with the gangohi issue and merely by restricting the issue to knowledge it does not change the similarity.
     
  18. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    I am not knowingly setting any kind of trap and certainly do not have any allegiance to deoband.
    With regards to limiting the position to knowledge. You can do that if you know that to be true. I don't even know if that is true or should be done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is unfair and gross distortion of alahazrat's position. this is but one example, that arouses suspicion about you being a trojan horse.

    alahazrat did not make takfir of a person if he said about the knowledge of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam that it was equal to knowledge of Allah, provided he believed that it was bestowed/atayi. this is not the same as:

    alahazrat did not make takfir if a person believes barabari/equality is bestowed

    and when it coupled with the previous statement: "the definition of shirk is equality (barabari)"

    the line gets distorted to a point, where one can juxtapose: how can gangohi be ruled kafir for not doing takfir of a person who said that Allah ta'ala had, in fact, lied. (al iyadhu billah).

    it appears as if you are setting a trap. wAllahu a'alam.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  20. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    You think this is an utterly idiotic argument based on TO's reading

    let us go back to the original objection.

    if i have understood well, the issue is:

    Alahazrat has not made takfir on the one who believes in barabari if its believed to be attaee (bestowed).​

    because:

    the definition of shirk is equality (barabari)​

    ==
    putting 2+1 together we get five or three? We need to get our definitions right. You would like to understand my question well and therefore i am restating it below.

    1. Definition of shirk is equality (barabari).

    2. alahazrat did not make takfir if a person believes barabari/equality is bestowed

    3. the question is: how can you justify alahazrat's position?​

    ---
    This is correct
     

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