The Sunni Creed regarding the Knowledge of Allah and His Messenger ﷺ

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Feb 3, 2019.

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  1. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    Ata'ee barabari is both rationally impossible and shara'i impossible, proof is Allah does not create equals and we are not to set up equals with Allah

    It is equality in a rank or wujud as both are equal/barabari in knowledge

    I gave details of what I meant when people (including myself) are confronted with this allegation we do not contest it being association we say we believe in less than a drop from the oceans in comparison. I have never previously seen anyone contest this.

    What I said and meant was 1/4, half or full barabari are all blasphemous terms/comparisons. Further ata'ee barabari does not exist and could not be a basis for not doing takfir. This last point is the subject of discussion if ata'ee barabari is the key qualification and basis for not doing takfir.

    There is however a few possible explanations as to what the basis for not doing takfir is.

    If I understood correctly your explanation is: ata'ee barabari (in knowledge) exists as a rational or shara'i possibility, it is not association and is the basis of not doing takfir.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    rationally impossible or is it a shara'i impossibility? and what are your proofs for or against either of them?

    How does ata'ee knowledge (even when incorrectly assumed to be equal) lead to equality of rank or wujud?

    First prove the existence of 'association' and then explain who contests negation of association and where.

    that is an assertion devoid of proof - and logic. Us sunnis don't equate or compare the knowledge of any created being to that of the Creator - but your statement above is seeking to do away with the key qualification which is the basis for not doing takfir - and without any rhyme or reason. Just why?
  3. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member

    Thank you, which angle should I focus on?

    For example it says if you hear a statement of kufr we should write to a mufti. I see the statement of barabari as a statement of kufr. However when this was posted on Facebook from the argument that ensued between some brothers one person said "so what if Allah shared ALL His Knowledge" so from that angle he is looking at it as a valid position not to be seen as kufr statement at all.
    Another angle is that it is a statement of kufr but Takfir was not made due to caution or other factors.

    Sometimes it would be sufficient for even great bestowals just to say bestowed or granted but here we are talking about barabari (equality)

    Attaee barabari is muhaal (impossible)
    Allah does not have equals. The fact that He is pure from such association is not normally contested by anyone

    For example when the accusers accuse Ahle Sunnah of shirk the reply is that in comparison to Allah "the combined knowledge of the first and last of all prophets and messengers and angels isn't even comparable to a billionth part of a drop compared to billions of oceans in relation to the knowledge of Allah.'
    This is Ahle Sunnah position and it is believed to be Attaee. The above granted knowledge is vast and bestowed by Allah.

    When we start getting onto ridiculous comparisons such as 1/4 or half or full barabari (equality) then there is no Attaee in this.

    I didn't want to make a post like this explaining my view but I suppose it might help me by making it easier for others to see what I am missing and educating me.

    Of course the other possibility is what I have said is reasonable but the takfir is withheld due to some technical Sharii pearl (insanity, ignorance etc)
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    read tkm
  5. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Active Member

    There’s your answer.
  6. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi New Member


    Can anyone give further insight into this.

    Peer Irfan Shah was running his shariah course at the same time as when this was posted and described the definition of shirk as equality (barabari) but here Alahazrat has not made takfir on the one who believes in barabari if its believed to be attaee (bestowed).
  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Baraylawi (d.1340 H) writes:

    'Allah ta'ala has given His beloved ﷺ detailed knowledge of every particle from the first day till the last - whatever has happened, whatever is happening and whatever will happen. In a thousand darknesses, if there is a speck or a particle of sand existing, the knowledge of RasulAllah ﷺ encompasses that.

    And not just knowledge, rather, whatever is happening in the world and will do so till judgement day, RasulAllah ﷺ sees it like he sees the palm of his hand. There isn't a particle in the heavens and the earth that is hidden from his vision. In fact, this is just a small tributary from his oceans of knowledge.

    He knows his entire nation better than a man recognises the one who sits next to him. And not just knows them, but he sees their every action and each movement. If a thought passes in their heart, he is aware of it.

    And in relation to the knowledge of Allah, then all the oceans of knowledge of RasulAllah ﷺ and combined knowledge of the first and the last put together aren't even comparable to a part of a drop compared to tens of millions of oceans.

    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ
    The oppressors didn't recognise the rank of Allah. Whatever has happened and will happen till judgement day, when it was said that Allah granted it to His beloved, it was said that you have made equality with God and become polytheists.

    Insolent people! Is the knowledge of Allah only this much that can be contained between two limits? This is even gifted by RasulAllah ﷺ to his chosen servants. All this is proven from the Quran, authentic hadith and sayings of imams, scholars and saints, details of which can be read in our books, al-Dawlah al-Makkiyyah and Inbā' al-Mustafa and Khālis al-Iýtiqād, etc.'

    [al-Áţāyā al-Nabawyyah fi al-Fatāwā al-Riđawiyyah, 15:74]

    Original Urdu:

    Elsewhere he writes:

    'Claiming equality with the knowledge of Allah is certainly wrong and rejected but takfir won't be made even on this when the claimant believes it to be by the granting of Allah.

    And without doubt, the truth is that the combined knowledge of the first and last of all prophets and messengers and angels isn't even comparable to a billionth part of a drop compared to billions of oceans in relation to the knowledge of Allah.'

    [al-Áţāyā al-Nabawyyah fi al-Fatāwā al-Riđawiyyah, 14:377]

    Original Urdu:
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019

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