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Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Isaac Amini, Dec 7, 2016.
from Imam Suyuti's Jazeel-ul-Mawahib:
So Imam Subki held that all Prophets (upon RasulAllah and upon them be peace) were the representatives of RasulAllah (peace be upon him) and the different shari'ahs which all of them were sent with were in reality parts of the one great, universal Muhammadan shari'ah which encompassed the whole of human race - from abul bashar, Sayyiduna Adam ('alayhis salaam) to the last of the humans to be born before the Day of Judgement is established.
Not only did he have a shariah but also representatives who preached it to the people (thus fulfilling all conditions).
What could be a more explicit affirmation of his primordial Prophethood (peace be upon him) in every (honorable and valid) sense of the word?
Their original challenge was to those who called them a kaffir to get together a representative and debate. Dr Ashraf Asif Jalali Sahib accepted the challenge. So Allama Saeed Asad asked if they considered him a kafir as the challenge was for those.
that depends on 'catching' it immediately and him accepting it straight away and correcting himself without demur.
as i said, it won't work. one needs to verify a text to ensure that he has quoted correctly and will take time to cross check. i personally try looking up other works for a proper perspective and it cannot be done in a jiffy - even though i carry thousands of books as PDFs on my laptop for quick reference.
the face to face munazarah will only result in denials and trying to convince him that he has messed it up.
a written treatise will not give space for claims of not having enough time, others shouting over us, others interrupting us, not convenient time, not feeling well, etc. etc. take your own time and write down your claims with proofs; those who criticise, let them write down their objections with their proofs.
sh. jalali mentioned that sh. saeed wanted a fatwa to be issued against him and he would then respond. this is uncalled for.
if shaykh saeed only contends that nubuwwat was given after 40, it is an aberrant opinion and not consistent with the rest of ahl al-sunnah. but if he claims that all those who believe that nubuwwat was given before creation of adam alayhi's salam are similar to qadiyanis, let HIM issue a fatwa to this effect and we will answer and demonstrate who is in need of reasoning skills.
nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.
from jawahir ul bihar 2:345
fyi i support allama jalali’s view but saw this and needed help explaining this especially the part about being a Nabi in taqdir
With respect . . Wouldnt a face to face be better in this scenario. If Allama Saeed Asad Sahib is being dishonest then the other debator would catch him out straight away and correct him. Surely that would be more beneficial
he blatantly misquoted and misrepresented the position of ulama and muhaddithin like alahazrat and shaykh abdul Haqq muhaddith dihlawi.
dig in this thread itself.
maulana saeed sahib has been utterly dishonest in his presentation of citations previously.
i have said it many times that face-to-face munazarah is an old and ineffective format for our time.
if saeed sahib is so confident about his claims, let him write a book.
we will refute him. in sha'Allah wa bi tawfiqihi.
The debate date has been set for the 1st of August. It will be held at Jamia Ameenia Rizvia Faisalabad at 9 am.
Some short clips from the Facebook page of Allama Muzaffar Husain Shah sahab in relation to this topic:
Hide and Seek?
Brother Abu Hasan, you wrote "the first condition is as stated in bahar e shariat. no objection on that one, and no argument concerning that." (post 29)
that's why i asked this. Not much had been said about this and seemed a bit confusing to me.That doesn't mean it would be confusing to others. It appeared so to me.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate a bit more on this?
i hope you don't consider bahar e shariat v1 as the final authority on kalam.
Dear brother Abu Hassan and other learned brothers:
there are 3 conditions necessary for a prophet.
1. he should be human. a non-human cannot be a prophet. they can be messengers [rasul], but it is necessary for a prophet to be human. check page no.10 in bahar e shariat.
2.for one to be a prophet, it is necessary that he should receive revelation [waHy] - whether it is [delivered] by an angel or he receives without any intermediary.
3. and what is the third condition? that there should be his followers too. the message of Allah ta'ala comes to him [i.e. prophet] and he [the prophet] will forward the [message] to the followers.
I feel that conditions (2) and (3) have been adequately clarified in this thread. But what about condition (1)?
1) Was Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) BASHAR (with a Body or Jism Mubarak) at the time of Khalq of Hazrat Adam (A.S) & his granting of Prophethood?
2) How do you explain above in the light of the condition (1) mentioned in bahar-e-shariat?
This was a question that came to my mind, hence i decided to ask.
Nabiy means elevated, high ranked, esteemed.
I don't buy that.
Brother Aqdas messaged me a few days ago regarding approaching Allama Saeed Asad Sahib and showing him this thread. I did explain i was waiting on a PDF and have asked him to do it if he can.. In the meantime Allama Sahib have made an open offer for a challenge.