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Discussion in 'Bibliophile's Corner' started by naqshbandijamaati, Mar 28, 2007.
THAT is taking conspiracy theories too far!!! poor tolkien!!
Asmalaikum dear brothers and sisters
In the film lord of the rings, there is constantly an eye, doesn't the eye represent Jews.
JazakAllah for the correction.. sorry for my poor adaab, i pray Allah forgives me.. inshaAllah. i read it somewhere.. but i believe the errors ( even the ryhme) may be mine.. Astagfirullah..
what are Tartars? i dont know of any that have described them as that.
p.s i agree about Arberry and Nicholson.. Alhamdulilah
Good to hear the exam went well. Haven't some Islamic scholars of yesteryear identified Gog and Magog with the Tartars?
the best translators can achieve both rhyme, rhythm and stay true to the
original meaning. e.g. Arberry, Nicholson, Fitzgerald (at times).
"Raza! In Allahs eyes we have no worth,
if we do not love Madinah on this earth."
i suppose, this is the translation of the couplet:
hum khak uRayenge agar khak na payi
aabad raza jis pe madinah hai hamara
O raza! we are truly unsuccessful, if we do not attain the dust -
of that piece of earth on which our beloved madinah stands.
why are people slaves of the rhyme? why do they settle for poor translations just to accomodate the rhyme? even if the translation is not of the couplet i have mentioned, the translation could have been made better by avoiding 'eyes' and using 'sight.'
well from what i have learnt the explanation of Gog and Magog who will appear in the End of Days.. according to christianity...is very very confusing.. you should try reading it yourself .. inshaAllah
the earliets reference to them is probably in Genesis.. i am not sure but they are neither explained properly as Men or lands, as Magog is explained as "land of Gog"!!
because of the hebrew translation it is not fully known Whether Gog or Magog are people or places, and different identifications have been made.
the army of Gog and Magog includes people from the nations, meaning people from the north.. and Gog will want to attack a "land of unwalled villages", this refers to the land of Israel.
i dont know about this fully.. because of my lack of reading.. it is worth checking in the book Ezekiel for, personal interest...in there it refers to Gog as a prince! ? of what, i do not know
its kind of a world apart from what Islam says about this.. SubhanAllah..
not entirely the same in some areas.. there is no mention of Hazrat Dhul- karnayn AS building the wall, to protect people from these two tribes of wild destructive beasts.. it would be different to what Islam say because.. of our belief in the return of Hazrat Esa AS.. neither does it mention any location to where the Gog and Magog are.. Islam from what i have read believ them to be in a land of ice?? near the caucasus mountains?
Allah knows best..
had my exam today by the way..
(its funny how you learn every aspect of the end of days and life after death, and you only get two questions!)
The question was about the immortality of the soul and resurrection of the soul, what Islam belive and what Christians believe.. and how it can be verified, the other question was about a critical analysis of the Islamic belief In the end of days, with contrast to the philosophical and Christian belief (what i was expecting) .. and Alhamdulilah i think i did well inshaAllah.. i felt prepared for it.. it was good and interesting. JazakALlah for all duas
Allah bless all, ameen
What is the description of Gog and Magog in the Xtian belief?
JazakAllah for the book recomendations.. but i dnt have enough time to read books last miniute.. InshaALlah with your duas it should be fine.
i have to focus more on the Islamic perspective on the End of days, in the Light of Quran and Hadith... and compare it with teachings from the gospel.. Christians view of eschatology isnt really different..
salaam and Dua
:s1: Faithful S!
Good luck in your exam. Imam Ghazali's Kitab Ba'd al Mawt wa ma Ba'dahu (trans;. by Shaykh Abd al Hakim Murad) is excellent and, probably, unmatched on the topic of the soul's journey....
Goethe's Faust (and Marlowe's and, later, Thomas Mann's novel version) is not the only play to deal with such topics. Iqbal too delved into this where he had God and the Devil as characters in his poetic dialogues. You'd enjoy it no doubt.
Do you study Christian eschatology too? Is it similar to Islamic?
i have heard of the play "faust" by german Goeth... but seen as iv heard many reviews i feel like i knw the book without even having read it!
it outdoes shakespere in scope...where philosphical views and irony are interesting but its a bit weird where in a serious play in which both God and devil participate!!! ( i may ahve got it wrong because i havnt read it!)
i agree with bro Abu Hasan tolkien has had too much praise for his fantasies.. ameen to his dua.
i have my synoptic exam coming soon.. on the journey of the soul after death... being objective for me is proving somehwat difficult plase pray for me
thanks citizen i didn't know that about the knights!
chivalry as in muru'ah or futuwwah. that is a man is willing to sacrifice himself in lieu of others. it is a great trait of sufis.
during the trial of the sufis in junayd al-baghdadi's time, they chose to execute a group of sufis accused of being heretics. shaykh abu'l husayn nuri was also among them. when they were called to be executed, shaykh abu'l husayn nuri ran forward; the judge/ruler was surprised - do you hasten towards your own death? he replied, 'if i die before them, i will have sacrificed these last few moments for my brothers.'
the judge began to cry, 'if these are zindiqs [heretics] then there is no believer on this earth.
it is in the hadith, that a little water was circulated among the wounded sahabah - each would pass it on to the next until it came back to the first untouched. each sacrificed it for the other. this is also known as 'yithar' or to give others preference over oneself.
but the LoTR has very distinct elements which are closer to islamic eschatalogy. it would have been interesting if people would demonstrate responsibility and willing to stop where they should but seeing that we do not possess such maturity, i must stop. otherwise it simply becomes blasphemous in creating pointless allegories and i am not going to open that door.
wa laa Hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah. however, we can discuss islamic eschatology. i think we have spared [or wasted] enough time on tolkien and his fantasies.
praising the traits of a believer Allah ta'ala says:
walladhina hum `ani'l laghwi mu`riDuun. // and they, who turn away from vain things and pointless amusement.
alas! may Allah guide us.
Talking about Christian chivalry it should be noted that it was practiced nearly exlusively by the knights. The other members of the military did not practice it as the knights did. The idea of chivalry in christianity is linked completely with the institution of knighthood. The word itself comes from the french word for knight, 'chevalier'. So i'm not really sure if the christian and islamic models of chivalry can be said to be virtually identical.
Hmm. the Dunedan as Muslim warriors..certainly they are chivalrous models...as are the Elves...
Except Dunedan means Men of the West according to Tolkien.
However the traditional Christian and Islamic models of chivalry are virtually identical. The only difference being that in today's world chivalry has almost disappeared from the West whereas it is on its last legs in the Islamic world but still visible in isolated pockets...
I like your idea of Gollum as someone following his nafs...
You'd like Goethe's Faust if you haven't read it already...
yeah the Id maybe a freudian reading, but what i meant was, gollum is the picture of one who is a prisoner of his own desires.. right?
thats all i was getting at...
i can see youv worked out all the comparisons ... i would have seen the elves more like Muslim warriors.. and the dunadien..honorable, noble characteristics etc... oh well
not bad again....
p.s jazakAllah for the welcome..
Welcome to sunniport! Good to have an academic here who knows what she is on about!
Now back to Tolkien: I think the parallels between Islamic and Roman Catholic eschatology are many and in many cases almost identical. I think LoTR can be read in that way too (though JRRT denied it vehemently!); as for Gollum being a metaphor for the Ego or Id---isn't that a very Freudian reading?!
Gandalf is v much a Christ-like figure who even returns from the dead...
and Radagast seems to perhaps be another character inspired by religious ideology--he can speak to the birds and animals like Solomon :as:; the One Eye of Sauron corresponds to Dajjal. (And note that Gandalf is Sauron's arch enemy.) The evil characters tend to all be coloured and the descriptions of the Orcs match those of Muslim warriors in many ways--with their curved scimitars and guttural language...the Moors perhaps...
i cant belive you all are talkign about Lord of the Rings!!! lol
because when i started to get an interest in it.. after the Hobbit etc...
i felt guilty as i thought it was unislamic.. and a waste of my time..
i study Islamic eschatology academically.. and Lotr was a good comparison, on catholic eschatology...
because we could see the fight against good and evil in this novel like evryday life, the golum being an alter ego or an Id!
p.s. About Islamic novels I suppose Alf Layla wa Layla (1001 Nights aka Arabiam Nights) is a type of novel.
Here is Richard Burton's complete translation online for your pleasure:
And according to Sayyid Hussain Nasr, Robinson Crusoe is based on the Arabic work
Hayy ibn Yaqzan...
No I didn't meanses you!!!! I am not a bad Hobitses!! I should shut up now before others think I really am a geek!! Add 'Dune' to that list too for the ubergeeks...
The Silmarillion is Tolkien's other great fantasy work.It tells of the First Age of Middle Earth.