Why "Islamic" forums are a complete waste of valuable time. And how everyone's full of it

Close it.

Farewell everyone.

It was good being on here. Not getting to the point most of the time. Like this tedious thread no doubt.

Wassalam!

 

i suggest closing it after yasser gets to post. i am done, in sha'Allah. if yasser doesn't post by tomorrow, we will lock it.

 

perhaps we all got lost. can you state your point(s) objectively?

that is a new furu'u. were we arguing about being self-contradictory?

in which case, you also lack writing skills. you need to learn to write too. perhaps you haven't been online as long as we have, so you don't know that it is a normal practice to write @aN or @aH or whatever to avoid confusion, when one answers multiple people at the same time. or use the quote button, so we know who are replying to. but anyway, i won't argue with you on this further.

the definition of "personal" is the key to this claim.

 

This is getting a bit tedious now.... what purpose does this thread have other than ramblings of a hot heated poster.... if this thread is not a "complete waste of valuable time" then what is?

 

A few contentions (again and again):

1)
noori, you still got the wrong end of the stick. No point elaborating why. Just read the beginning of the thread

2)
The reason why I lack imagination is because if I applied it you'd achieve your goal of trying to make me come out with ad hominem attacks and "straw man" arguments, as you like to put it.

Since I haven't really got personal at all so far on sunniport (except where Khadimu and his like have pushed me to) I feel you believe you have the right to try and do just that. It won't happen my dear friend.

3)
Abu hassan says:

"
The fact that my one line comment about "what are you playing at man?" stays on your mind subconsciously, at least, shows why 1 little slip does indeed tarnish a persons reputation.
it was not on my mind when i wrote the post. it was nothing to do with you. this was a call for action."

(End of quote)

It's ironic how you accuse me of lacking basic reading and understanding skills when I wasn't even addressing you in this quote. I was addressing abu nibras!

4)
Abu nibras, that's why I uphold cynicism or malevolence, as you'd like to put it.

If anyone, I'm not a cynic, check all my other posts and tell me if I am.

I think you lot just don't want to admit the point I'm trying to make and are thereby prolonging my stay on here. I'm sure I'm not that interesting or interesting at all even for you keep posting replies when my points are clear.

Abu hassan I still await your quotes from my posts wherein I've contradicted myself.

You still haven't provided 1?!

 

it was not on my mind when i wrote the post. it was nothing to do with you. this was a call for action.

we started with nabeel's case, moved on to a number of points and then you said: 'forums are a waste of time.' in this thread, we disagreed with you.

of course, in the sidelines we have other disagreements and accusations; i have been rather free with you in doling out accusations, firstly because it is easy to counter you that way; secondly, to prove a point, that it is better to advise people in private. you are an upright man (i presume) regardless of your flaws of argument, and only you can know whether you felt bad with my sweeping accusations: "yasser can't read, yasser's logic is terrible". if you felt bad about it, then that is how the person you talk about feels.

it cannot be avoided altogether. but, when it is a trivial matter and between sunnis, it is best to ignore it in public and talk about it in private.

----
whatever your nuanced arguments might be, my point is simple: sunniport has its use. we have never said that we can replace all madrasahs and every other website, and that sunniport will rule them all. we think, anglophone sunnis online have a channel to discuss. read the rules, we never claimed to be perfect. we don't heavily moderate the forum because, we are not dedicated to this task. your other solution to get more moderators is valid, but if they are like you with stubborn opinions and obstinately refuse to compromise like adults, there will be more chaos. without participation, there is no way for us to decide on the merit of someone - whether they are impulsive, or short-tempered or prone to outbursts and whether they have the ability to take criticism in a positive manner.

apart from it being an accusation, it is certainly my opinion that you need to improve your reading and comprehension skills; and spend some time learning about fallacies. i say this not pejoratively, but in the spirit of constructive criticism. i had considered explaining my accusations of "poor logic" to you in private, but i see that it is potentially dangerous - not that i am afraid of "exposure" but i dread the awkward justifications that may have to follow for the folly of attempting to help you.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

no i am not saying that. You are thinking too much. Of course it is not necessary to know someone to believe in their opinion whether on a forum or in real life. Credibility certainly can be judged from extent of knowledge, strength of argument, character shown by the words. i didn't think about the works of Shaykh Abu Hasan in this thread. They are fine and excellent the way they are. And the author's name "abu Hasan" is a valid name. I have a feeling that he will release his works in the future for the masses to benefit decades from now.

i think you are misunderstanding Ustadh Yasir and don't know where he is coming from.. I think he wants real life debates in addition and is just encouraging that and looking for takers indirectly. I don't think you know how harsh Ustadh Yasir is with heretics. Shaykh Abu Hasan will look a thousand times milder.

 

as i had said, this confirms that yasser doesn't know how to read. here is the brief exchange in which "i admitted my double standards" (these are one-line mails between the two of us):

i wanted to delete all of uwaysi's post, but i felt he had some valid points except for a couple of lines. when i deleted yasser's post, it went off my mind that uwaysi's post also had a line. when yasser confronted with this, i didn't disagree with him - nor did i give him a justification.

---
apparently i admitted my double standard. yasser, you lack imagination my friend. you could have said: "abu Hasan was literally on his knees, totally devastated when i exposed his double standards; he could say nothing except accept my charge and he sheepishly and shamefully had to admit to his double standards - and true to his cowardice, he ran back to those posts and immediately edited them with red marks."

---

 

still don't agree, you are saying that until you don't know me you can't take my opinion. why this cannot be true even with books to some extent, when usually many people only read the author's name and don't know much about him except for the very few. or in other words MFM, TKM, Preamble and all other works of sidi abu Hasan are futile and useless until they have his real name on the pdfs.

in the end it is always an opinion not people. yes, an opinion from an authentic person carries more weight but still what matters is the correct opinion.

as AQ said, it i just a matter of choice whether you use a nick or your real name. how does a nick gives you an impression that that person is different than he appears on internet?

yasir's irk is actually not nicks but the language and methodology of a couple of good and staunch sunnis here. nobody disagrees with him in principle but at the same time nobody ought to agree with him entirely. at times we have to condemn heretics harshly, that's what our elders have said and done, and at times we have to be kind and persuasive, it depends with whom you are dealing.

forget padri's followers, he himself doesn't involve in debates or munazrah, how can you deal with these people? so, the target is not them but those who are unaware, and for such people everything is available - from sane and cogent arguments to bad mouthing, people will take according to their taste. besides, when good work is already there and more in process then there is no reason to whine about harsh attitude which sometimes is necessary, and sometime over used.

 

The fact that my one line comment about "what are you playing at man?" stays on your mind subconsciously, at least, shows why 1 little slip does indeed tarnish a persons reputation. In which case my whole point about "representing" properly the refutation which one aims to provide is prime, and stands.

Abu nibras, even by discrediting that one little comment of mine and allowing it to change your whole view about me means that you've agreed with everything I'm saying more than anyone.

Because that "image" concept, for which reason, I started commenting on nabeel afzal, is the exact same thing I'm trying to say. And you've more or less agreed by stating your image of me has changed due to a one line comment!

Although it maybe illogical to think like that most the time, the human mind loves stereotypes/stigmatisation/biases etc etc.

Therefore, instead of tackling the asl mas'la people choose to make ad hominem attacks.

Take deos debating about milad just to avoid discussing the ibarat.

Now the reason I spoke like that I don't need to justify, because even abu hassan finally admitted his double standards to me in private messaging.

 

That would be the message or views that are given in a few series of posts. But Ustadh Yasser has a point that you are not getting. Its about integrity on serious matters in real life and about advantage, because posts tend to be refuting real people but seem to be asking them simultaneously to come here anonymously and discuss real issues, while a real debate could have been good. How many minhajians have countered our arguments here on Sunniport? Hardly any. You are not a known person, but your opinion ought to be known in real life, and for that people would like to know your name, not that of your father or grand-father, or at least who you are if you seriously pretend to make a difference to the world using an internet forum.

I understand where Ustadh Yasser is coming from. He means to be decisive and then moving on to tackle others in real life. For example. brother @AbdalQadir can post 52 other threads on Hamza Yusuf, in the coming year at a frequency of 1 per week, but eventually it gets to the point where visitors will wonder about the next stage. How much of a dose is needed?

Or are these forums all about "chaska", as Ustadh Yasser said.

That is the real work Ustadh Yasser is talking about. And i feel he is a lion, a genuine human being with the best concern for Islam and Muslims. A known man on the ground who can obliterate napak padri fitna forever.

 

Why do visitors believe this is Shaykh Abu Hasan's forum? Any reasons for the impression they come with and then leave with? (that this is a Shaykh Abu Hasan forum)


One reason could be the impression that he is the most active moderator.

Can there be another additional moderator who appears as strong as him in dealings?

 

enter the tech-admin (or he-deludes-himself-that-he-is-one): one of the hitherto underused feature of the forum is "resources" - where you can post a list of posts in a mashup. use the articles category (which is now created). it is moderated, but users can make a list of related posts they like: preface it with a short introductory paragraph of what can be expected on the links listed on the resource page, in the form of a summary.

that is only the first part of data-mining. now, if you are a really good judge, you will come up with a good collection of links. in other words, you can build your own little corner on this forum and share the link of that resource with your friends. for example, if you are too embarrassed to share sunniport (what with boisterousness all around) and fear that you will be ridiculed as a juvenile forum-visitor, but you still like a few good posts that you think are worth sharing, do the mashup.


---
but there is a bigger problem here - but before i begin my lament until the tenor touches c4, a mandatory "where-i-stand" disclaimer. because reading skills have become stunted these days, and the context is reduced to the thread or just limited to the recent post. hence my disclaimer: i am a rather take-it-easy--don't-be-ruffled--people-talk--things-will-improve-settle-down-by-themselves, kind of a guy. i often forget that i am also an admin, (which helpfully, others regularly keep reminding me, talwiHan wa taSriHan). yet, i am a bit disappointed in the last few weeks and wondered whether the upgrade was an exercise in futility, and whether yasser was right in his comment: "forums are a waste of time".

---
the problem is: most of you view this forum as belonging to abu Hasan or think it aH's forum (it is actually abu Nibras' forum). we try hard to make it a community forum. yet, even noori, who is a close friend and a dear brother, a long-standing member and contributor, thinks this is somebody else's forum (read his i-am-an-outsider comment below).

if you don't want to be a part of this forum, by BEING a part of it; and if you want to sit outside, just watching what everyone does - and when you post with the subtext screaming: "i am an outsider, peeping in to say hello. goodbye" it will remain another forum where people talk - some talk more than others, and eventually the admins go berserk (or at least one of them does).

silence ensues.

---
there are the likes, they actually show where you stand. aqdas is trying to highlight this feature by liking many posts of mine, but it appears that not many have noticed. (hey, you don't have to like my posts on my forum...ooops..our forum).

instead, begin to think of it as a community forum - and create your own little corner by contributing to resources. initially, we* will control it, but as the community matures, i expect it to be streamlined, in sha'Allah. by liking resources or adding comments, you promote the good ones to the top of the stack. one/two years down the lane, we will have a number of "top-resources" which can be helpful for any newcomer.

there is a FAQ, which we can build over a period of time covering all aspects. but only one or two questions have been asked so far.

---
think about it. people can contribute to the "guides" section: "how to perform janazah prayer". this doesn't have to be unique. various members can post their own articles - and others will rate them. may not work always (as mediocre writing by admins can get promoted because members may feel it a courtesy to give good rating to admins) but it is better than nothing.

these are SOME ideas. many of you are younger and will have far better ideas. share with us - BUT don't feel disappointed if it is not adopted or implemented immediately. among the duopoly,** the first dictator (aN) believes in empowerment, so he sits watching on the benches until i have to implore him to get involved. the second dictator (that's myself, if you didn't know) is quite slow; sometimes he recognises bright ideas only after everybody and their grandchildren have understood it. so he may not be quick to respond, but hey, use the likes. if you like the idea, say so, and you may succeed in getting a feature against the wishes of the second dictator.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

---
*strangely, 'unbeknown' is the only nick i find annoying as it forces me to decide between rewording my sentences for clarity or turning it into a pun. i felt like saying: 'initially we will control it, helped by a mod unbeknown to you'. but i was worried that people will flee, before the borders close as the dictatorship unleashes secret police.

** we added a third dictator (who was reluctant) to make it a triumvirate, but it is only to make him do the hard work.

 

i said to yasser in post #30

fulfilling my promise, here's my rapid-fire reply to the various points you mentioned in your post #29

1 - wrt manner of posting - explained very well in my post #45. as for abu Hasan and KS getting 5 stars, of course, i never said anything about them. i mentioned ghulam becoz you did.

2 - since when did Shari3ah allow anyone to give their own opinion?
on mubah matters it does allow us to give our own opinions, and that's what i was talking about. in religious matters, we follow the qualified opinions of our mazhab of fiqh and its authorities. since you are not an authority in my mazhaab (hanafi), i see no reason to listen to you on any religious matter. in worldly matters, my own opinion rules my life anyways!

3 - you said you didn't apply the same tone at me as i apply at heretics
ok, point taken.

4 - real names vs pseudonyms.
see this is a mubah matter. your word is as good as mine. if you want to shove your "opinion" down my throat as a qadhi's ruling, you need to back it up with a scholarly ruling in fatawa alamgiri or ridawiyya or somewhere else! otherwise why should i listen to you? you are welcome to say real names work. i say pseudonyms work as well as real names. you can't force me to accept your point of view.

5 - i accept that i need to learn Arabic and read the books of the elders of the Ahlus Sunnah. point taken.
you also said lot of people have double standards to confront deviants directly in person. agreed.

6 - you spoke rubbish. i was just saying my general feelings regarding the usage of the words "academic" and "educational". i never said you are sulah kulli. i also never said anything about the harm or benefit of mentioning and clarifying the view of the opposition. dunno what you were thinking.

7 - you can stop or stay as long as you want. i don't have any authority to kick you out. i was merely pointing out the contradiction in your logic.

my promise of responding to you is fulfilled. now i wish to walk out of this discussion. see you in the other threads brother.

 

i read it or listened to an scholar telling this that once a person shooed away a dog saying 'o wahabi', and ala hazrat alaihi rahmah wa riDwan forbade him saying that the dog may complain on the judgment day that he was only an animal and not a gustakh e rasul alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem. perhaps yasir will mind it too that ala hazrat even did not give wahabis an status of dogs or other animals.

 

ok yasser, i'm only posting my last post on this thread because i promised you. i might reply to you elsewhere or to other people on this thread, but as for your grouse with me on this thread, this is my reply and i'm not interested in taking this argument any further.

----

first things first. you say we're all childish and need to behave like adults. here's an adult thing - adults don't always agree on what is the best way to do something. they do know how to manage their disagreements.

the sahaba on multiple issues thought differently, on matters of maslaha, as did the tabi3een, as did many other greats. we sinners are no different in terms of thinking differently. that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

as long as we are within the confines of the Shari3ah on 3aqidah and Divinely ordained commandments, it is our God-given right to agree or disagree on matters left to our own discretion as humans.

really, i like you as a brother, but suck it up and move along. no one's gonna agree with everything you say, or even half the things you say. if no one listens to your suggestions, too bad! you can't force your vision of a perfect forum down anyone's gut - unless you start your own forum.

people need to listen to the mods here because they own the place. you don't. if (laa-qaddar-Allah) the mods ask anyone to say something contrary to Ahlus Sunnah or the Shari3ah, then we leave this place and don't come back. that's all.

----

coming to my ruthless manner of criticism or insults aimed at deviants or sulah kullis - thanks to your (yasser) putting me in a corner, i have to walk a fine line between crocodile tears, arrogant justifications, and taking off on ego-trips. thankfully, brother Noori's post #41 was a beacon of light for me, although i don't claim to be like him or have the same manners as him.

firstly, i have mentioned open kafirs on this forum in different contexts - like amitabh bachchan, hillary clinton, donald trump, obama, narendra modi, pope benedict, jimmy superfly snuka, etc. - i haven't mentioned them respectfully, yet at the same time, i haven't insulted them ruthlessly, since they are open disbelievers and their religion/cause is known openly. they don't claim to be religious authorities for Muslims, neither do Muslims take their deen from them.

what can obama or modi do to me or you or any other Muslim? destroy our homes in an airstrike? waterboard us? make a human pyramid out of us, put a garbage bag over our heads and take a picture making the victory sign (abu ghraib)? put a bullet in our heads? or maybe after that, urinate on our corpses or graves? can't do anything beyond that.

with "people" like tahir, hanson, keller, etc. the damage caused is far worse. they can and are causing people to become murtads. full stop.

coming to the style of criticism of these enemies of Islam and Ahlus Sunnah, there's more than one way to skin a cat, imho, these 4 can be classed as the major ways:

1. refute them by mentioning their names and their deviant stances, and humiliate them for their heresy
2. refute them by mentioning their names and their deviant stances, but don't humiliate them for their heresy
3. refute just the deviant stance and mention the correct Islamic stance without bringing in specific personalities, and humiliate the heretics in general
4. refute just the deviant stance and mention the correct Islamic stance without bringing in specific personalities, and leave it at that

additionally, for some people like ghulam or me who might not be as well read as some others like Noori or abu Hasan, to actively refute, but at the same time, we are capable to see and understand the Sunni stance and also see their heresy for what it's worth, we might at times, only engage in

5. just humiliate and mock the heretics. (i agree this can't be done on a neutral turf, as it will just turn people off. however, on a forum such as Sunniport, where we all do share a common Sunni foundation, i see no harm in it personally. however, if the mods restrain people from it due to other people visiting the forums, and ask only for academic/educational exposes preceding it, i can respect it.)

the lightest method is number 4. btw, i know for a fact, even that is FORBIDDEN in kellerian, and hansonite circles - for example, you are forbidden to even state the general rules of Islam. you will be labelled a takfeeri zealot for even mentioning that making fun of angels takes you outside of Islam, for instance. this is the norm in their circles. you are forbidden from even calling hindus or christians as kafirs. in fact they have an allergy to what they call "the k-word".

if (laa-qaddar-Allah) even number 4 is stopped on this forum, which i see as unlikely in sha Allah, then i will leave and speak about them (forum owners) the same way as i do about sulah-kulli heretics.

but unless that happens, in the spirit of following the forum rules, i can forego on aspects of 1, 2, 3, or 5 if i am involved in such refutation or expose etc.

it's obvious some people believe that method 1 is the most effective, while some others believe otherwise, and these are all disagreements on the matters of maslaha.

i strongly believe that method 1 is the most effective but i don't own or rule the forum.

in regards to humiliation, i try not to use cussing language or 4-letter words but rather just other invective and appellations that i personally don't see a problem with, like "padri" "shaytan" "dajjal" "kadhdhab" "enemy of Allah & His Prophet" etc. personally i believe equating such heretics to dogs or pigs is also fine.

ghulam uses sarcasm and exaggerated titles to mock the sulah kullis, and personally, i do appreciate his posts.

again, i don't expect everyone to subscribe to my opinions or style. despite thinking something else is better for maslaha, i will follow the forum rules, as long as i am not prevented from method 4 in the very least, not that i am capable of any educational refutation or expose. if (laa-qaddar-Allah) that happens, then i will know that someone else has been bitten and himself turned into a vampire on Sunniyat or Islam!

----

another thing i wanted to bring up in this context, without sounding argumentative, is the labeling of deobandis as devbandis or deobandits or other such words.

i feel if they can be applied such appellations, so can other heretics. we must maintain uniformity in our treatment of heretics.

yes they (deos) have scholarly fatwas against them by giant scholars, and some of them are serious gustakhs, while in the case of some modern heretics (mainly sulah kullis and tahiris), it's mostly only us little boys pointing to their new clothes, or perhaps some of their heresies are not to the level of thanwi (tahir's heresy is at the same level, i believe)

but when you talk about effectiveness to the overall larger audience, such factors get cancelled out. to a less knowledgeable person, it is just as much a turn off to call tahir as padri as it is to call a deobandi as a deobandit. remember, you know the finer details, not the lesser knowledgeable audience.

it also can give the wrong message that we are confident against deobandis only because they are fellow desis, but scared of non-desis, which will even make the whole Sunni-deobandi issue lighter to a less knowledgeable 'neutral' observer to the level of just perhaps something like the india-pakistan cricket rivalry.

of course, i also see the downshot of all this where some people might think we are against everyone on every issue, and therefore a cult! (btw, there are deos too on deo forums who are against us, and also many non-desi Sunnis)

----

i mostly agree with brother Noori's sentiment without piggy backing on him and insinuating that my language/style is as good as his or i am as knowledgeable as he is

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i hope that settles that yasser. i really don't have any more time or inclination to answer a lot of your smaller questions. i think i addressed the larger issue.