trusting the pens of jamia karamites

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by AbdalQadir, Apr 28, 2015.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    actually, people can find heaps of non-desis who are Sunnis in 3aqidah and not sulah kullis or get-down-on-a-knee-and-get-knighted-baptized Muslims. they can be Arabs, or Turks or Malays or Sudanese or even some anglo-celtic converts. they just might not be all that popular and might not enjoy 1st page rankings on google or youtube or might not make it to the common word's list of top 500 Muslims or might not enjoy generous endowments from various government task forces.

    does the queen offer knighthood for punjabi speeches too these days?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  3. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    I do not think Pirzada Saab is soft on the devs. I once asked him if he was naram like Pir Karam on the devs and he said anything but. I said it is because you have drank Jhang dah paani and he laughed.

    Sadly Pirzada Sahib and all the baat baat ding ding Maulvis are head over heels over mark, Habib Ali etc. They need to snap out of the inferiority complex and realise they are not white and from rural punjab or the mountains of potwar/kashmir.

    the disease has even spread to Bhiki who are hosting Sufi Sudani, Shaykh Saad and any other non desi they can on the day! Shah Jee needs to give a good old Punjabi speech like the classic Kee kaar dita Raza nai to them in Brent on the Bank Holiday Sunday!
     
  4. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I too would recommend staying away from books written by sulha kullis. Not disagreeing there at all. May be Pirzada sahib is a closet or even an open sulha kulli or may be he is not. I couldn't discern anything wrong from my reading of his tafsir.
     
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    It is good to hate sullah kullis and disparage them, which I don't disagree with. But there is a difference between concrete evidence and hearsay, between guilt by association and active commission.


    While I don't disagree with your recommendation (I personally would do what you suggest), that is no solution to a gaping need on the ground. Imdad al-Karam's English translation is one of the better ones available for a sunni reader. Unfortunately, that's where we are at this point in time.

    I can't think of many readable tafsirs in English. Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought uses translations of classical exegeses but given their association with Common Word and Fons Vitae, they are tainted beyond 'belief'. There's a partial translation of Tafsir al-Qurtubi by Aisha Bewley, which I understand has been abridged severely and still remains incomplete. English translation of Tafsir al-Jalalayn is too concise to be comprehensive.


    That would make a good signature or standard disclaimer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    brother please try to understand what I have written before you reply. It was you who brought up zamakhshari the mu'tazili in the thread and so I asked you about deobandis, wahabis etc. because they fall in the same category as him.

    If you agree with what I have written below it's good and if you don't its up to you. i have said it already that every person is responsible for his actions alone. So please lets not squabble about this any more.

    I do not know any myself. I will recommend listening to kattar-sunni scholars speak on tafsir or better still take tafsir lessons from them rather than recommend a tafsir by someone I do not trust just because it's the best available for now.

    And if someone is truly interested in 'ilm-e-deen he should learn arabic and urdu (for desi origin people). These are indispensable. I speak from experience. Not knowing these is a handicap which is acutely felt every time one runs into a problem whose solution is not available in english.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.

    wassalaam.
     
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In all fairness, Pirzada sahib hasn't reached the transgression of deobandis, wahabis and shias. If he has (in your knowledge), can you please tell us how and where? Nor is he in the same category as ibn Kathir. Besides hosting sullah kulli events at Jamia al-Karam, what else has Pirzada sahib done that makes you categorise him a deobandi etc.? Anything that you can cite from his speech or writing? If you can, please do so.

    -----

    On unrelated note, can you recommend a detailed commentary of Qur'an in English? Which one should a layman read? Can you please compile an "essential reading" list of tafsir in English?
     
  8. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Ulama of UP and Bihar on Huzur Zia ul Ummat

    Huzur Lisan ul Asr; Mufakkir e Islam



    Their twin brother gives a passionate speech, Haji Imdad gets up at 8 minutes to kiss them and Amin Sahib also get up at end



    Huzur Ghazi e Millat



    Huzur Misbah e Millat show their appreciation in a poetic manner

     
  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Kia awam un nas ko aisay logon ki kitabain parrhni chaihaiy jin kay aqaida ka ilm na ho?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/6Oct13/11.mp3

    kya tahirul qadri ki kitaboon ka mutaala kya jasakta hai?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/21Feb10/20.mp3

    Aisay loug jo BadMazhabon ki Kitabon ka muatalia kartay hain unn se Salam-o-Kalam karna kesa?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/20Dec09/28.mp3

    Gunyat at-Taalibeen Sarkar Ghous-e-Paak ki tehreer karda kitaab hay? Iss kitab ki Mutalia ki Ijazat hay?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/18July11/18.mp3

    Professor Israr Ahmad ki taqrir sunana kaisa hai aur inka kis maslak se ta'alluq hay?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/3Mar13/1.mp3
     
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yes, i had a post i cannot find it now either. i had made a lengthy post with proof and citations earlier, which is now lost in the heap. but i remember my argument though.

    karam shah in the preface berates alahazrat's translation and in tahir-jhangvi fashion, tries to say, "look look, i am better than them all".

    and you can go through various aayaat which are difficult for a translator, karam shah simply copies alahazrat, without even as much as mentioning him. but this is not his practice concerning others - after a lengthy page, he is so meticulous as to mention a scholar as a source, even though in that particular place it wouldn't have mattered. besides, alusi's tafsir is translated in generous chunks throughout, with proper attribution!

    you already berate alahazrat's tarjamah in the preface and imply that you are attempting a better translation, yet borrow from THAT very source you consider a less-accurate translation and not even mention it!

    there are other places too which slip my mind; in sha'Allah, if i find time, i will write more on this with references and citations.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Azhari MiyaN has categorically stated that the laymen should not touch Tafsir Ibn Kathir. Even those scholars who are not busy in refuting deviants should not touch such books.

    Q1. Tareekh Ibn-e-Khuldoon, Seerat-e-Ibn-e-Kaseer aur Tafseer-e-Ibn-e-Kaseer aur Qasas al-Anbiya ka Mutali'a kar saktay hain? Aur Ibn-e-Jawzi se Muta'alliq Ulama-e-AhleSunnat ka kia Mo'aqqaf hay?

    Ans: http://jamiaturraza.com/session/8May11/12.mp3

    Q2. Bachoon ko peer say ibn-e-kaseer parhwana kaisa?
    Ans: http://jamiaturraza.com/session/080209/19.mp3

    ---------------

    based on these and other sources I will personally never recommend books by dubious people, never mind how scholarly they be. If others wish to, that is their choice and they should be prepared to answer for it if it leads to something untoward.

    wassalaam.
     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes.

    to each his own. But do you have an answer to this query:

    What do you think would be the ruling on reading books written by sulHa kullis?

    and since you have named Zamakhshari I will also have to ask what is the ruling on laymen reading books written by deobandis, wahhabis and shias?

    Would you recommend taqi uthmani's biography of Hazrat Uthman (raDiyallahu'anhu)? Take it from me that it's exceptionally good.

    none and I do not think that I will, seeing their shenanigans.
     
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Tahir Riaz of YN fame had this takia kalaam "judge the issue (in this case book), not the person" ;-)

    Flippancy aside, I'm not justifying Jamia al-Karam or vouching for all its activities but merely providing opinion on the tafsir. I read that tafsir 7-8 years back (when youtube was still in tube/pipeline) and when Jamia al-Karam had a possibly a cleaner, unsullied reputation. Without any baggage, I didn't seem to find anything wrong with it (or so I recall).

    Your apprehension is based on fear and reputation (fair enough). My judgement is based purely on what I have read. Commentators won't use Zamakhshari's Kashshaf otherwise and find it useful in parts (else Kashshaf would be as condemned and untouchable as Zamakhshari himself). I can see you telling me that it is fair for scholars but dangerous for laymen.

    Note that I didn't recommend the original urdu tafsir of Imdad al-Karam (may be it is just run-of-the-mill). I have only read its English translation. Given the severe paucity of well-written, sunni tafsir in English, it is not difficult to see and say that its English version is still one of the better ones available. It's all relative.

    I have read English translations of Jamal ul-Qur'an (Pir Karam Shah's translation) and Zia ul-Qur'an (his tafsir); but I wasn't much impressed by these (kind of dry and without much insight).


    If you lived in UK, you will be surprised how many sunni ulema (even those who do not tolerate sullah kullis) are chubby with Pirzada sahib. It will be interesting to hear which UK ulema has openly condemned Pirzada sahib for his professed creed, speeches or writings. Why that is so I can't say since I'm as far away from the scene as probably you are.


    very simplistic and facile I must say.


    which other literature have you read?
     
  14. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    That was in his book in the 1960s. ^

    This (link below) is one of his later works on the issue (published aug 1986). I just had a quick flick through. Only 60 pages, first 30 after the intro can be skipped.
    http://www.slideshare.net/ahlussunnah1/tehzeer-un-nas-meri-nazar-may

    I also read that he wrote he agrees with Hussam. But i can't seem to find the magazine. October 1986 edition
     
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I shall do that if ever I feel a need to read it or take my creedal/fiqhi/history instructions from it.


    perhaps you have misinterpreted the reasons behind the posts I have written below. I have not said anything about your's or adam's opinions or inclinations. I have merely tried to justify my apprehensions about jamia-karam literature.

    oh so that's it's name. see, he even named it after his controversial shaykh. Anyway, I have already answered that question. I wrote:

    "given their numerous dubious actions and sulh kulli leanings. At the least I would warn the person to whom I recommend their books that these people fall in the grey area and so he should not form any sort of emotional connection with the authors lest he be impressed by their scholarship or 'rollay' or whatever.

    Besides, it softens a person's attitude towards the author and thence towards his ideas which can be dangerous."


    The crux of the matter is this: What do you think would be the ruling on reading books written by sulHa kullis?

    We do not endorse books written by shias, deobandis or wahhabis even if the particular book might be harmless and quite accurate in it's citations. My reasons in this case are the same.

    Do not forget that the name of that thread was "Essential Islamic books that all households should have". So that includes even the impressionable youngsters who might tend to support or even go on to justify jamia-karam's other activities just because tafsir imdad karam was exceptionally good.

    Hope this clarifies my posts.
     
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  16. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Why don't you acquire a copy of Pirzada's tafsir and make your own judgement (or get someone to judge for you)?

    Are we trying to judge (i) his tafsir, (ii) his person, (iii) his organisation or (iv) his pir? I have only read his tafsir and didn't see any red flag. If any one else has, let us know. I haven't given any approval to (ii), (iii) or (iv).

    I was never a fan of Pir Karam Shah's tafsir. To write a tafsir in Urdu, claim to be sunni, not cite Ala Hazrat and not discuss the issues that are core to sectarian divide, makes him ihsan faramosh as aH has described. I have watched videos of Mawlana Tabassum Bukhari's allegations against Pir Karam Shah; in the absence of more information, I am inclined to believe that allegations were true.

    But what has this got to do with Tafsir Imdad al-Karam (by Pirzada Imdad)?
     
  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    and another:

    "As Brother The Emir said the problem is his very soft corner for Deobandis. He praised Qasim Nanotivs Tehzeer un Naas saying its such a great book that everything I read it I get new meanings.

    Then when he was pressurized by Sunni Scholars then he did ruju (some people say) saying that whatever is written in this book is Kuffar.

    Deobandi Khalid Mehmood in his book Mutala Bareliwiyat quoted Pir Sahib praising the book and then latter changing his view. I have heard from Ulema that Khalid Mehmood again wrote on the ibarat of Pir Karam Shah Sahib saying that how can you say what is written in this book is Kuffar? When you first said whenever you read this book you learn new meanings etc?

    This issue was quietened down but thanks to Pir Amin ul Hasanat Shah Sahib, few years back a book was published from Bhera Sharif. The books name is Jamal E Karam which is in 3 chapters, in this book their are sayings of Pir Karam Shah Sahib compiled together. This book is endorsed by Pir Amin ul Hasanat Shah Sahib, in that book Ulema say their are hundreds of dangerous ibarats.

    In Jamal E Karam it is clearly written that Pir Sahib did not do ruju on Tehzeer un Naas. Also its written that a person who insults the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, calling him a Gustakh E Rasool, that's old days now that times gone.


    Some Ulema have problems with the Tafseer Zia ul Qur'an. I can assure you its not only these 3 or 4 scholars against them rather their are a lot more.

    When these Scholars are asked whats the point highlighting this now, they say look their is a lot of written stuff against him. When he was around their wasn't Youtube then. The Ulema are saying their is a lot available. Which some ulema are even going to go through and read it on the internet now from his books.

    Pir Syed Irfan Shah Sahib does not call Pir Karam Shah Sahib a Kafir but does disagree with what he has written. He has all the right to because he is a Sunni Scholar and has even met Pir Karam Shah Sahib himself."


    ----------

    As you know Haji Imdad and Amin-ul-Hasanat are fast friends. Haji Imdad reportedly called him up to congratulate him after he won some election. So they are close and the above about pir Amin-ul-Hasanat is more worthy of discussing than an electoral victory. If I am not mistaken, he was also present at wembley.

    so brothers sherkhan and Adam, this's where i am coming from.

    I won't endorse jamai karam publications unless every line has been vouched for by a sunni aalim and then again I would consider and deliberate over it given their numerous dubious actions and sulh kulli leanings. At the least I would warn the person to whom I recommend their books that these people fall in the grey area and so he should not form any sort of emotional connection with the authors lest he be impressed by their scholarship or 'rollay' or whatever.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    This shaykh here is trying his utmost to give pir karam shah the benefit of doubt but you can see that he agrees about the kufr part itself:




    Another post throwing light on the case of pir karam shah:

     
  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    sullah kullism, if proven, is bad in and of itself. What do you think would be the ruling on reading books written by sulHa kullis?

    that point is moot. The beginner is not always able to tell the harmless from the harmful. One poisoned chocolate in a box of a hundred is still fatal. Besides, it softens a person's attitude towards the author and thence towards his ideas which can be dangerous.

    This is what sidi abu Hasan wrote about pir karam shah in another thread:

    He also has another post about tafsir zia-ul-quran but I could not find it now though I searched the archives.
     
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    This thread is a continuation of the posts made here.

    I have not made any assertion for it to be judged right or wrong.

    I have merely expressed my personal reservations about karimia literature given their inviting a.h murad, junaid jamshed, a wahabi qari, asim's love for hamza yusuf, silence on tahir jhanghvi and such things. Yazdani of the 'Holy Zohar' fame has studied there too.

    That's quite a line up of eye-brows-raising activities and hence I think that 'it's just the young moulvis' is an ingenuous way of looking at the situation.

    Karam shah azhari being the shaykh of haji imdad Hussain is enough to raise my guard.


    Which means that no sunni aalim has vouched for each and every statement in the tafsir. Given what happened with tafsir zia-ul-quran and the fact that they belong to the same group and have themselves shown leanings towards an unhealthy kind of inclusiveness I would treat this fact as an obstacle in the path of recommending the tafsir to beginners.
     

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