which day is superior - 9th dhu'l hijjah or yawm arafah?

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 19, 2021.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the simple answer is: when haajis gather on the plain of arafat. incidentally, it will be the 9th of dhu'l hijjah.

    whether it is TRUE 9th or not is a different discussion.

    in the gulf, the last eid was on the 13th of May being thursday. 30 days were completed in ramadan.
    on this day, (i.e., the day of eid in the gulf), which was the "correct" sighting according to indo/pak brothers - the new moon could be sighted late until 8.30 pm almost after isha time.

    the questions is: does the new moon stay late until the dark?

    "intifakh al-ahillah" / when the new moons will be seen bigger (instead of faint thin line) and people will say: "this is a two-day moon". which is mentioned in the hadith as a sign of qiyamat being closer. this is a different aspect.

    we are talking of a new moon that lingers for hours and is visible late in the night.

    https://www.almanac.com/content/captivating-crescent-moon

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  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    unfortunately people are conflating issues.

    ----
    strange logic. and if you think about it, it is an absurd statement.

    how many plains of "arafaat" are there? and where are these located?
    is there an "arafaat" in every city - so that they can gather on that plain and call it "OUR day of arafah?"

    interestingly, shah abdul haqq dihlawi in his ma thabata bi's sunnah, mentions of such a practise and deplores it as an ugly bid'ah.

    ma thabata.jpg

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    if you have noticed, shah abdu'l Haqq refers to the fast as : sawm arafah.

    this is an entirely different issue.
    doing eid and starting ramadan is dependent on moonsighting.

    and regardless of what saudis do - the day of arafah is the day when haajis assemble on the plains of arafat.

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    so they should align it accordingly. but for those who fall in the time-zones when it is day on the same day as arafah, they should consider THAT day as arafah.

    nobody cites the case of the poles to talk about ramadan - because those are exceptional cases. similarly, those places where it is night when it is day in arafah can follow up the next day and in sha'Allah will gain the reward.

    however what is the excuse for those where there is day on yawm arafah?

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    obviously as they cannot fast in the night.

    wuquf of arafah is until dawn of the 10th.

    bahar2.png

    so your issue with "no one being able to catch the time frame of arafah" is a non-starter.

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    yes.

    all the hadith mentioned - extol the day of arafah - i.e. when the hajis assemble on the plains of arafah. technically, it is the 9th of dhul hijjah, but the hadith does not extol the fasting on the 9th per se.

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    as far as my knowledge permits, they spoke of the "day of arafah".

    in al-majmuu of imam al-nawawi:

    majmuu v8p292.png



    even if people mistake on the timing of arafah - the day people gather on the plains of arafah will be deemed so.

    similarly in radd al muhtar and bahar e shariat and (dozens of hanafi texts if you wish)

    rddmhtr, v4p42.png



    bahar.png

    that is the main issue which people in our time fail to grasp.

    in those days, (merely 100 years ago) there was no way of knowing that people gathered on arafah on a particular day - so they relied on moonsighting and said fast on the 9th, expecting those in makkah to do the same and hence coincide with the day of arafah.

    wAllahu a'alam.
     
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    That's the whole point here - What is the Day of Arafah? The 9th of Dhil Hijjah as per your local sighting or the 9th of Dhil Hijjah in Arafat only where the actual Wuqoof-e-Arafat happens? (Again, in a general sense, regardless of adminisyor government or specific year)
     
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    No that's irrelevant. We are not talking about these guys being right or wrong in their sighting declarations. We're talking about the matter from a principled point of view about the Day of Arafah, in general, regardless of any administration or management or government or specific year in question.

    No one is suggesting that the non-Haji is superior to the one performing the Hajj if he fasts. It's about availing the fadilah of fasting on Arafah, something that is clearly mentioned in ahadith.

    another thing that came to mind, and I'm not a mufti so it's just a thought, is that in such a case perhaps it's viable to do qiyas with one salah running into the time of the next salah. a person who is praying Zuhr in the last minute and completes a rakat of Zuhr and the time of Asr starts, he's considered to have done Zuhr on time.

    perhaps some knowledgeable mufti saab can advise if a person in honolulu fasts on Yaum-e-Arafah, and only 74 minutes of his fast overlap with the moments of the actual Wuqoof going on in Makkah, maybe he can be considered to have fasted the entire day of Arafah?

    This is purely from a fiqh perspective. Allah's Mercy and Rewards are as per what He Wills.

    Allah knows best.
     
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    As in most years, this year too Saudis have commenced the month before sighting of moon. So the sanctity of day of Arafah has already been violated, rendering your question moot. Now, what if the month officially commences on the right date (by sheer accident!)?

    Another point (that I recall reading and hearing, but can't place it where) is that (given the hardship) for hajjis fasting on the day of Arafah is not a requirement. If that be so, then why would fasting on yaum-e-Arafah be superior for those not in Arafah (i.e. not in the midst of hajj) if the day is not 9th DH?

    I would incline towards your friends' views.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    can we come up with a reconciliatory position? (not for the sake of our egos, but for the sake of understanding and accurate tahqeeq)

    the actual blessed moments of the actual, physical Wuqoof IN Arafat are the most blessed and superior moments, and everyone avail these moments in worship in general as best as they can;

    while for fasting, everyone subscribe to their 9th of Dhil Hijjah in their location OR the 9th of Dhil Hijjah as per Makkan calendar (either way, they wouldn't be able to get the timings of the actual Wuqoof to overlap with the timings of their fast! but if they fast as per the day of actual Wuqoof in Arafat, they will at least get a few moments of the blessed timings of Wuqoof to overlap with some part of their fast, hence my leaning towards what @abu Hasan is saying)
     
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i like this topic and it has intrigued me too for some time now

    (i'm no genius so please forgive my errors; and this is only to discuss, not to teach anyone to suck eggs)

    let us firstly get some basics right to start this in a simple fashion

    certain ebadaat are tied in to certain times only (eg. 5 daily salawat, fasting in Ramadan)
    certain ebadaat are tied in to certain places only (eg. tawaf of Baitullah)
    certain ebadaat are tied in to time and place (eg. Hajj & Wuquf-e-Arafat - what we need to discuss now)

    for the one performing the Hajj - it's obvious - 9th Dhil Hijjah IS the Day of Arafah and the day he fulfills the Wuquf-e-Arafat - it's his obligation and in any case the time and place both are in alignment for him

    for people not going for Hajj - we are looking for fadilah - which is the point you have raised, and hence the mish-mash between the time and place discussion

    in my understanding, their logic is that the 9th of Dhil Hijjah IS the Day of Arafah as per your calendar wherever you are. (they either have sound daleels for it, or maybe they ignore the physical location aspect of the Day of Arafah on which Wuqoof is physically done in Arafat)

    that is why our desi maulanas always emphasize local moon sighting and they give the reason that just as you can't have global prayer times for the 5 daily prayers, you can't have global moonsighting declarations as well, as these vary from place to place

    this is the crux of the matter.

    for us fadilah seekers - does our 9th Dhil Hijjah equate to Yaum-e-Arafah for us, or does it not? It is well possible that Yaum-e-Arafah (on which the Hajis perform Wuquf) can be 8th Dhil Hijjah in Pakistan or India for instance.

    but even by this logic, a person fasting on the Day of Wuqoof won't be precisely fasting on the Day of Arafah per se, at least not in its entirety, unless he is located in countries close by Makkah.

    this is the Fajr & Maghreb times (the start and end of Wuqoof) in Makkah for tomorrow

    upload_2021-7-18_17-52-3.png

    as you can see, for the people in the extreme west of Makkah, they would be in a previous day when the Wuqoof starts in Makkah, just by virtue of time zones, that is, even if people in los angeles or honolulu are following global sighting and consider 19th july (Yaum-e-Arafah) to be their 9th Dhil Hijjah, they would still be in 18th july and 8th Dhil Hijjah when Wuqoof starts, and they would have only started their fasts for a few hours when Wuqoof ends.

    contrarily, people eastwards in tokyo or auckland would be close to their mid-day of 9th Dhil Hijjah when the Wuqoof starts, but they would have easily progressed into the 10th of Dhil Hijjah while the Wuqoof is still going on in Makkah. (again assuming they too are following the same dates as Makkah)

    we can look at their statuses relative to the Wuqoof based on their own prayer timings for 19th July in their areas, once again assuming their lunar calendar is aligned with that of Makkah:

    upload_2021-7-18_18-0-57.png

    someone in honolulu would start his fast just 74 minutes before Wuqoof in Arafat is over

    someone in auckland would start his fast much before Wuqoof in Arafat starts and finish it just 4 hours 2 minutes into the physical Wuqoof in Makkah (with the bulk majority of the time of Wuqoof still left to complete)

    in other words, no one can catch the time frame of Wuqoof-e-Arafat precisely (all or bulk majority of it) unless he is in a place close to Makkah, as far as fasting is concerned

    as for other non-fasting ebaadaat like nawafil etc, someone in los angeles could very well schedule a time aside from 1823 hrs on 18th july until 0905 hrs on 19th july, in order to avail the fadilah of the blessed moments during which actual Wuqoof is going on in Arafat

    but here we are concerned with fasting per se ...

    my point - my heart too leans towards what you say @abu Hasan , however the time zone differences are not very generous to us if we consider all Muslims living in all corners of the world.

    1. now we have to see the Shar3i daleels for and against either position. i remember you posted some content on this last year or the year before
    2. what did the previous akabireen of our mazhab or other mazhabs say on the matter? they might not have had whatsapp or phones or radios on those days to announce the moonsighting in Makkah, but alhamdulillah with their knowledge and intellect they surely would have considered such situations and the time differences

    Allah knows best.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have been arguing about this for a long time. our friends from india/pak do not agree with me and insist that they should fast on 9th in their countries.

    i say: fast if you wish but the superiority is for the day when the haajis congregate on the plains of arafat.
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

     

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