what then is sulH kullism?

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Khanah, May 6, 2023.

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  1. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Re downplaying gyarweeh etc... The problem is we don't actually downplay it. The vast majority of the barelwi public overplay it, and we get the occasional scholar who'll be like 'guys, calm down'. It's not like every imam on the minbar is speaking about excess at gyarweeh. In fact, the average imam's livelihood depends on it so he is more likely to give it a greater status than it is due and whatnot. Downplaying it is only a response to the excess of others.

    The other reason why I think many posters bring up issues like this as being overemphasised is because we have bigger problems facing us, like liberalism and whatnot. We see the occasional shaykh speaking on these vastly more important topics and because we are on this forum, we have a bit of a selection bias because it is brought to our attention and we seem to think more work on this front is being done relative to the actual reality.

    Not to derail the thread on a tangent.

    I would agree with the assessment that most 'tanatan sunnis' would fail a basic aqeedah test. These are the people who ask questions like 'is Allah everywhere?' because they're unsure whether Allah is present in the creation or not, I seek refuge in Allah. I speak from experience although it is anecdotal.
     
  2. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

    I just saw it on FB and shared it here, had no idea that Sayyidi Taajush Shariah alayhir rahma said something very similar.

    can we say that this would fall under the ambit of "shar'ee zarurat" ?

    I would say this is more transpicuous in this era with the age of social media where we can openly see who follows which type of group and what are their views on various aqaaid matters.

    so how many more definitions do we need to elaborate on? a deobandi is a deobandi as he follows the way of deobandis and the same is for the tableeghis or any other deviant group. yes we can take precaution on calling them kaafir but to further 'define' or stratify them into sub groups would just be more harmful to us (i.e. we will create more scape-goats for sunnis to interact with them)
    does sin have a correlation with aqeeda? missing salah definitely has severe consequences and i stand to be corrected here that some fuqaha have said the person is at the risk of loosing imaan but the general consensus is that the person still remains a muslim despite him missing his faraid. the reason why I'm making this point this point is that is almost seem that a more comprehensive definition with prerequisites is desired for one to be classified a sunni or a certain level of knowledge must be attained for you to be a sunni.
    up to what point can we consider such people 'common muslims' as ofc these very commoners end going to study in their darul ulooms and become riper deviants who end up defending 'their aqeeda'.

    maaf for the questions mawlana, i do agree that in modern its nearly impossible to avoid contact with deviants but however i feel there is still a lot of room for us to avoid their company. they show no mercy on innocent sunnis (barelwis) by casting shirk fatwas on all of us and calling us grave worshippers etc. despite our ulama elucidating on these matters or ages, so why should we disintegrate their groups and be lenient with them?

    yes they not tana tan sunnis and our people over do it with alqaab however the above issues are things our ulama defended their entire lives. it is something that is part of the sunni identity. i don't understand why we down playing these these events (11vi 12vi) when these can be really spiritually uplifting for many (depending on how people in their regions celebrate these). as one can see shaykh asrar tried to better the state of sunnis by advising that we should call out on Allah more yet up to this day (just 3 months back) such videos are being circulated as' evidence' that see even a sunni aalim of the barelwi sect considers this wrong.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is no disagreement with the fatwa per se. but the context, people and issues mawlana hashmat ali is talking about is not the same as 21st century issues, people and context.

    i reached 40 pages from the fatwa until now (p523).

    the summary is mawlana is refuting altaf husayn hali, shibli numani and syed ahmad khan - along with other 'muslim'* community leaders who desired 'unity' and appealed to avoid refutation of deviant sects.

    one relevant point on p.496

    ftwhashm, vp496.png


    ----
    *in quotes to indicate that was the claimed title. not that i consider them muslims.
     
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  4. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    Allamah hashmat ali (khalifah of Alahazrat) has a very lengthy and detailed fatwa in his al-fatawa al-hashmatiyyah (page 491 onwards) about sulhkulliyat. there is also a separate PDF of it extracted from the original fatawa collection. I've attached both.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Ala Hazrat/his khulafaa himself permitted contractual business partnerships with hindus didn't he?

    He only warned against murtaddun like qadianis (duniyawi trading affairs) if one could help it. Even in his times, how could one avoid dealing with the british or not be courteous to a Khan bahadur or something?

    The wahabis too bring in the example that the Prophet 3alaihis salam and/or Sahaba had trade contracts, loan agreements, and even employer-employee relationships with jews who were openly anti-Muslim in those days. they bring it in for stupid memes and WhatsApp campaigns to boycott Pepsi or Starbucks and so on. I concur, i think boycotting specific products or groups of products is a fool's errand and a waste of time. (Sorry this point is only indirectly related) But then apparently, the Israeli date industry was hurt this Ramadan when people boycotted them and bought Arab dates.

    Allah Knows best.
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    tajush' shariah rahimahullah did not say: 'kisi bhi soorat.' and even if he has said so in any other clip, he means non-transactional relationships and voluntarily choosing to do that even when one has an option to withdraw.

    he said: those people who do not agree with their ideology and beliefs - but still socialise with them and continue to have relationships with them.

    --
    plus we live in a different world.

    the ahkam of disconnecting, boycotting trade with heretics and warning about other dealings with heretics - even apostates - are impossible to follow except for those who withdraw completely from dunya.

    - let us say you join a company to work - two days later deobandis joined as partners. will you quit the job?

    - any number of things that you buy in the supermarket - and their suppliers, producers, transporters, investors or partners in whatever form.

    - you are working in a company - and a qadiyani or a staunch deobandi joined your company as YOUR direct manager.

    - you get a job and discover the day you join that you have to work with apostates - colleagues, collaborators, vendors, suppliers and so forth.

    - you rented a flat and the building was purchased by a qadiyani / rafizi / ismayili / deobandi - so your rent goes directly to him.

    - you invested in a company after due diligence and then the executive team brought in a new set of investors which included ismailis, apostates and qadianis.

    almost everything that you buy, sell, use - has participation of everyone else in a modern world.

    if you avoid buying bread from a suspected deviant/apostate - the owner of the building could be one. obviously, we cannot go ask the baker: "can you please explain whether you attest to husamu'l haramayn before i buy bread from you". if the baker is not deviant, the supplier of dough might be deviant - the trader of wheat might be deviant - the wheat came from an apostate landowner and farmer...

    ----
    in alahazrat's time - everything was local. you knew almost everyone in the place you lived and knew their inclinations, the people they meet and so forth. so boycotting some people - avoiding trade with them etc was all possible and it was used as a device to pressurise people to refrain from joining heretics.

    so blanket diktat that "meeting, sitting, dealing with deviants becomes a sulh-kulli" is not correct in my opinion.

    ---
    secondly, the 'definition' of deobandi, tablighi, sunni also needs a deeper look.

    many so-called 'sunnis' are generously given that title even if they do not pray; they lie and may have weird beliefs regarding peers and karamaat and so forth. and if you asked them about daruriyat - they would have no clue of islamic basics and utterly fail on sadru'l afadil's kitabu'l aqayid. but yeah, they come to milad functions, join in gyarahween and say "ya ghawth". so they are "tana-tan sunni".

    on the other hand, an average person who prays and tries to follow islam - and on account of his exposure to deviant groups considers tawassul as shirk and milad as bid'ah. he has no clue of any of the aqaid of deobandi elders; but has a good opinion of deos or ahl-hadith because he thinks they are 'religious' people. such a person is unreservedly labelled as deobandi, ahl-hadith - whereas he should be treated as a common muslim in bad company.

    ----
    wAllahu a'alam.
     
  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Your post about 'what then is a sulh kulli?'

    1. If a person doesn't even consider deviants to be deviants, he's an actual sulh kulli.

    2. If a person does know they are deviants but hides the fact (your post), he is a sulh kulli in action.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2023
  8. ghulam-e-raza

    ghulam-e-raza Well-Known Member

    Sulehkulli ki Kitni Aqsaam hein? Aeteqadi Sulehkulli aur Amali Sulehkulli Kise kehtay hein? Huzur Pura Masla Tafseel se Bayaan farma dein aur unn se muamalat ka Hukam bhi Bayan Farma dein?
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/3Aug14/15.mp3
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    on what basis is the sulhkulli definition in that poster made?
     
  10. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

    Would a person who 'amalan' meets with deviants for work, uni, general day to day business would his imaan be in danger?

    Would it be haraam? Whats the repercussions for such interactions.
     
  11. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

    img_1_1683051410668.jpg
    Saw this on FB
     
  12. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I've left all ulama groups but was added to one again recently. Someone asked on there: 'is Shaykh Asrar a sulh kulli?'

    So, like I did on that group, I ask again here:

    Those who think Asrar is sulh kulli, please post a comprehensive definition of sulh kulli, in English, so that we can put this to bed.

    You can keep calling him deviant, sulh kulli, not a proper Sunni, etc. but why aren't you defining sulh kulli?

    Do it. If it then applies to Shaykh Asrar, I'll be the first to deem him one.
     
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    No.

    ---
    Sulh kulli in belief would be someone who actually believes some or all sects other than Ahl al-Sunnah are rightly guided and that they only have minor differences.

    Sulh kulli in action would be someone who does believe only Sunnis are rightly guided but fails to condemn one of more deviant groups as deviant.

    And on second thoughts, I'm not sure if Asim Yusuf is sulh devbandi iytiqadan or amalan...

    That is, does he know they're deviants but hides the fact or doesn't he even think they have beliefs against Ahl al-Sunnah...
     
  14. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Is there such thing as shia 'amalan or wahhabi 'amalan (to the exclusion of the i'tiqadi aspects of said groups)?

    How useful is the 'amalan category for a term often used to make a finding regarding someone's i'tiqadi stances?
     
  15. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I didn't say he's sulh kulli iytiqadan. He's sulh kulli amalan. I'd love someone to prove me wrong and show that he doesn't consider devs to be Sunni...
     
  16. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    I've heard things about him re: non-takfir of the deo4, however a general question I have is:

    Is an appearance with sunnis and then with deviants a sufficient piece of evidence to draw this inference (below) about a person's state of belief and knowledge in order to term them sullah kulli and thus outside ahlus sunnah?

    Furthermore: if sullah kulli can mean: fasiq, ghumrah, or even in its most extreme form, kafir, then how useful is it to use a single term whose intended meaning may be ambiguous?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
  17. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    This is sulh kullism. Asim Yusuf appears alongside Sunnis then devs like Faraz.

    FB_IMG_1639511730405.jpg
     
  18. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

    it definitely is a means to make sulleh kulliyat rife. by the way can somebody explain to me what are sunnis ulema doing with deos and sullehs when the shariah does no permit taking shahadah from them.

    i just feel in moonsighting issues the sunniway is the best as to how they deal with it in accordance with Maslake Alahazrat.
     
  19. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Thank you. I was actually wondering about that because people are saying Noor TV people are sullas as they are sitting with New Crescent Society to establish local moon sighting in the UK.
     
  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Sulh kulli is when someone does not consider deviants to be deviants or does believe they are deviants but does not say so when asked.

    If someone accepts that certain people and groups are deviants but then works with them for issues of common concern, this would not be deemed sulh kulli.

    E.g.

    A Sunni scholar openly professes that devbandis are deviants. He then sits with some devbandis for moon sighting. He won't be declared sulh kulli.

    The bottom line is:

    - does he accept they are deviants
    - is the issue of common concern
     
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