Shaykh Gibril: Umar's Marriage with Umm Kulthum

Ghulam e ghaus said

Ghulam e ghaus sahab, is it possible to know which all scholar from ahlesunnat held this view? Can you please provide the reference. This is a request.

 

Ghulam e ghaus sahab in post 11

post 16

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post 70

 

I think post #70 should be the starting point of the discussion ...

From now on we'll observe who is addressing the issue and who is carrying out personal attacks questioning the motive of the opposing party.

May I suggest that every reply must start off by answering the questions posed in the previous post, numbered bullet points be used to summarise the points made and to finish off by posing numbered questions for the opposing party.

 

finally, there is a glimmer of hope to have a discussion.

as for this:

I will sometimes in July-august, InshAllah!

there is no blanket acceptance of history. all history is interpretation. you evaluate and provide reasoning then it is upto to the reader to reject it or accept it with a better reasoning, etc.

the inference is that we have an authentic marfu hadith from Huzur Paak(S) directly about the marriage of Seyyeda al-Zahra(S) whose daughter we are talking about. it is not a historical report. the marfu hadith says that when hazrat Umar wanted to marry Seyyeda Fatima, the Prophet(s) refused on the basis that she is saghira i.e. small, young for you. the basis of refusal by the Prophet Himself (s) are the young age of Bibi Paak. now, by inference, we have another daughter of the Prophet(s) being sought for marriage by the same hazrat Umar, whilst she is also a saghira. the hadith says you cannot marry my saghira daughter.

the authentic hadith is reported by imam ahmed, imam nasai, ibn hibban and others. the difference is that we look at what the Prophet(S) said then we look at what history says and when it contradicts, we reject that history.

ref: http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?bk_no=633&pid=139173&hid=25

 

you are veering the topic elsewhere.

you are being evasive.

i think this is going nowhere. all you do is claim that you have answered me. and when i do it in your own fashion, you don't acknowledge it.

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there is another option: write a paper starting from a premise and up to a conclusion with your references. we don't have to go through all this. and then, i will write a rejoinder if necessary - or if your argument is so strong, it will go unanswered.

why are you complaining? i am fine with sources - the translation was just to demonstrate it for the onlookers.

what a bundle of contradiction you are!

history is from the sources. you cannot deduce history. show us the sources that deny or reject this marriage. we have no value for your deduction.

so you presented a marfu hadith that denied the marriage of umm kulsum bint fatimah? where?

while we have so many reports by so many ulama, all all you have are conjectures and derivations demonstrating an ignorance of texts.

i just want to demonstrate your misunderstanding of the reports and that your argument is peppered with fallacies.

 

my argument is that your position about the marriage of seyyeda umm kulthum with hazrat umar is untenable. Evidence in this regard is contradictory. it shows hazrat umar in a very bad light. this is my method: to show you that your evidences in this regard is flawed. since, you know the inherent problems with it hence you are trying to stall the discussion.

 

yes, delete the post which evidences to refute sunnistudent and leave the other one, a personal reply to a personal attack.

i have given you the answers to those questions. you have not made your stance clear.

how can I tell you that. there are many different things within ibn sa'd. start the discussion, like i said, first it claims four marriages of which you also only believe one.
it is strange thing with you guys that when a present a translation of something then you want to look at the original but when i present the original then i should have translated it. it is your way to just stall at any cost. you have said nothing about what your stand is about those things. do what you say first. this is an arguement before an argument. deleting has already started. i can understand your frustartion because you have no answer and hene you devise an ludicrous question set in one direction only and then keep asking about those questions until the day of judgement. I am arguing that hazrat Umar did not marry the little girl of seyyeda fatima(s). that is my claim and i will prove from that. it is matter of history. when i present a marfu hadith from the Prophet(S) to undermine your historical hotch-potch fanatasy then you instead of replying you delete. wow!

i know, the only thing that you are good at, dear brother, is attacking the other person. in every single argument that you have had here. the very first thing you do is attack the other person. i invite people to go though his old arguments. that is a trait of loser!

 

we are not starting any discussion unless you answer those straightforward questions.

hey, you are shying away from this as if i am asking your personal details or your health record. i think you have never seen tabaqat al kubra in your life, nor the other three books. all you do is google or repeat some one else's nonsense.

if not, you can answer them. and give us references for your answers. you post arabic references because you are incapable of translating them. gg sahib, if you cannot answer these four simple questions or reference them, what of your reputation? your friends at yanafi will lose faith in you.

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the questions are thus:

1) what is your stand concerning ibn sa'ad's narration? do you accept it or reject it? please state your reasons in each case.

2) also, what is your stand concerning al-isabah, usd al-ghabah and al-istiab. do you:

a) accept all three
b) reject all three
c) accepts some and reject others

please also state which and why.
​

(NOTE: we will not comment unless you provide the quote - and the same rule applies to others. provide references and the quote.)

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3) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum bint ali raDiallahu ta'ala anhuma: whom did she marry - how many marriages do you accept and which ones and why? (we know from your previous post that you deny sayyiduna umar's marriage with umm kulthum and therefore question narrations and point out contradictions).

4) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum: where did she pass away and in which period? (after karbala? hasanayn's time?)


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the other option is: quit. just say that you don't want to discuss this further because you don't have information. you can take a week to research that information and come back. i won't mind waiting for you (ba qayd e hayat, if i am around, inShaAllah).

 

i have deleted 3 posts: by sunnistudent m1s2t3 and gg.

unless gg answers those questions, i will keep deleting his posts.

you should have hammered me. i implore. please don't let me off. refute me.

see, you are throwing more and more unsubstantiated claims. i won't answer this. i have seen pir abdu'l qadir say this and quote something, in his now famously dishonest way, by omitting a key sentence.

this is another issue and we won't talk about it, unless you write proper referenced answers. on one hand, you charlatans claim to be some very knowledgeable scholars, but when we call your bluff, you cannot even present your pathetic proofs coherently.

the only reason you are running away (i can wait for a week, if you wish, inShaAllah) is you cannot play a fair and square game. anyone can see that my questions are as fair as fair can be - these are academic questions that require research and a stout heart, which lily-livered googlers cannot find.

so i am not asking you to divulge your personal details. just justify and reference your answers. if not, you have lost the game, no matter how much you proclaim victory.

but all visitors on our forum have seen that you are incapable of giving a well-referenced answer for four simple questions.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

Brother, when you come back after your busy schedule , please don't forget to get that details of the quote from Imam Ahmed Sirhindi (rh).
The massaging thread is not locked. You can do more research and post. But look in that thread that even after you agreed to give the meaning of"mahall e fitna'' you didn't give! Finally, I had to write. So you need to first keep up your words. [ Remember, Imam Rabbani;s reference is still awaited and I will keep asking, not because I doubt you. But because I want to read it and learn its sharah.]

Peadaphiile details? What is that?

 

SubhanaLlah!

I hope you're not insinuating anything about sayyidi 'Umar b. al-Khattab radhiy Allahu 'anh.

 

yes, it is a typical trait of these brothers, they attack persons. a sign of their weakness in argument so they try to vent their anger by he is this and he is that and yet they are angels from heaven. these are the most dogmatic people i have ever come across. may Allah guide them and enlighten their hearts with the true love of ahl al-bayt.

i have given you my answers so lets start the discussion and i must tell you that i'm very busy this week. also i let you off on the 'massaging' issue but here i will not let you off from the peadaphile details provided by the authorities.

 

every person can see gg's awful methodology, which i suppose is pir abdu'l qadir's hotch-potch half-baked idiocy.

they accept and reject authorities at will even if they have no capability of reading the text.

he has nothing concrete but he criticises everything. and blames us for running away. i have in fact decided to shelve my projects until i get done with you. i said, i didn't have time. and i will make time now. i have asked you to produce a list of 'unanswered' questions, (including the comment on SaHiH Hadith and kufr). but that will be only after we settle this current dispute.

please do and let us get done with it.

inShaAllah wa bi tawfiqih.

 

you have not answered the questions.

i did not say that we will not examine this. i only said that we will not examine this issue at the moment.

i can also say that i have answered yours.

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see, i am trying to bind you (to hold you accountable) because, with little data said, you can always switch sides. this is an islamic discussion and if you are so uptight about clearly talking about what you know and what you profess, what is the point?

if flaunt such expertise to dismiss all the hadith masters and historians, biographers who said that sayyiduna umar married sayyidah umm kulsum, then, surely we must hold you accountable? or should we just blindly accept your criticism?

why is it that you can pick holes in arguments of celebrated books like ibn sa'ad's but we cannot criticise yours?

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you have to answer and give your reasons for your summary accepted/rejected posts. and you say you don't know who sayyidah umm kulsum married; even for that position, you will have to give reasons.

you are not a prophet or even an imam to accept your comments without demur.

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i will give them in the exact way you have:

1. i accept, in spite of seemingly contradictory reports.

2. accept all three with caveats.

3. can't say for definite

4. don't know with caveats.

 

now that i have answered your questions, i would like from you the replies to the exactly same questions that you have asked me.

 

1. I reject because of contradictions.

2. accept all three with caveats.

3. can't say for definite but it wasnt hz umar.

4. after karbala.

this is non-sense. we have a text of tabaqat then we have other texts to evaluate that one for nafs al-amar.

i have answered all your questions but my friend suhail tells me that you may still find another way to stall. though, let me tell you this week is difficult for me to be here regularly.

 

while you have attempted to answer my questions (albeit sloppily) it is necessary that you answer objectively, to all the points below. you are examining the source (ibn sa'ad) right away without mentioning other things. here are the questions once again:

1) what is your stand concerning ibn sa'ad's narration? do you accept it or reject it? please state your reasons in each case.

2) also, what is your stand concerning al-isabah, usd al-ghabah and al-istiab. do you:

a) accept all three
b) reject all three
c) accepts some and reject others

please also state which and why.
​

(NOTE: we will not comment unless you provide the quote - and the same rule applies to others. provide references and the quote.)

-----
3) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum bint ali raDiallahu ta'ala anhuma: whom did she marry - how many marriages do you accept and which ones and why? (we know from your previous post that you deny sayyiduna umar's marriage with umm kulthum and therefore question narrations and point out contradictions).

4) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum: where did she pass away and in which period? (after karbala? hasanayn's time?)


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who said otherwise? if you dismiss any source, just because you don't like it and cite the above, so can i. then, what is the criterion to accept anything? there is no point in any citation at all.

or else, just say: "i don't believe it and i won't accept any citation unless it is from the quran". say it, and we won't bother you.

if you refer to any other source, you must accept or reject the source and cite your reasons.

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you have raised another issue here (that sayyiduna `umar asked sayyidah fatimah's hand) even though you said that you would talk only about tabaqat. you are already veering away from the issue at hand. we can discuss this issue only after you reply to above agenda and we are done examining the tabaqat.


PS: you can move the "remain unanswered comment" and your reply to a different thread.

 

we are looking at the first source in this matter of marriage of seyyeda umm kulthum; which is in tabqat ibn sa'd.
there are contradcitions. ibn sa'd says four marriages. three to people that lived at the same time. umar, aun and mohammed. the first two died during the caliphate of umar as others have told us. so, if our first source is correct, then which one was the husband of seyyeda? surely, it has to be one. it cannot be hazrat umar because when he asked for the hand of seyyeda fatima al-zahra then the Prophet(s) told him: innaha saghira. she is young for you. now, hazrat umar is much older and the daughter of the Prophet (s) is even younger than when he asked for seyyeda al-zahra's hand from the Prophet(s)
reference: sunan nasai, musnad ahmed, ibn hibban and others. for quick reference: http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/display_hbook.php?bk_no=633&pid=139173&hid=25

note: all rijaal are authentic.


*we are looking at tabqat ibn sa'd first, point by point, then we will see the other sources. i do accept all three al-istiab, al-isaba and usud al-ghaba but only the Qur'an is infallible.

 

if you are really serious and not a firestarter, then we must be open and each should provide their proof.

our stand is clear: sayyiduna umar married sayyidah umm kulthum as reported by numerous sources.


this is your stand:

there are numerous questions on these many claims. obviously, you should be measured against the same standard - and every piece of YOUR evidence should withstand the objections you have upon that you contest.

and to contest this, you say:

just for clarification: so are you denying that she was married to any one of them or just some of them? the same source (and you insist upon this) that says she married:
1. umar
2. awn
3. muhammad
4. abdullah ibn ja'afar

raDiyallahu anhum.

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according to your deduction, since awn and muhammad were martyred in tustar in sayyiduna umar's time, she couldn't have been married to them. right? in other words, you do not accept ibn sa'ad's narration.

our questions:
1) so what is your stand concerning ibn sa'ad's narration? do you accept it or reject it? please state your reasons in each case.

2) so also, what is your stand concerning al-isabah, usd al-ghabah and al-istiab (i assumed al-istian is a typo). do you:

a) accept all three
b) reject all three
c) accepts some and reject others

please also state which and why.
​

(NOTE: we will not comment unless you provide the quote - and the same rule applies to others. provide references and the quote.)

-----
3) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum bint ali raDiallahu ta'ala anhuma: whom did she marry - how many marriages do you accept and which ones and why?

4) what is your stand concerning sayyidah umm kulthum: where did she pass away and in which period? (after karbala? hasanayn's time?)

please furnish your evidence for these stands as well.

----
we can proceed only thereafter.

remember that we will certainly ask you the following question in the last; but, at present we are measuring your qiyas and ijtihad.

5) is there any mention in the historical literature, hadith or rijal literature that questions or denies or rejects sayyidah umm kulthum's (bint ali) marriage to umar? if so, please provide evidence.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

it did not.

see, it is easy to set a hundred small fires, but takes time to douse them. and while we are dousing one, you run about and light another.

one can give half a quote or out-of-context quotes (you didn't give the reference though) and sit still. one can cite hundreds of such quotes. in fact, i can too, but setting fires is below my dignity.

if i have to prove your statements wrong, i have to investigate all of them. and when we do it, you simply move to another topic or quote without acknowledging that you were wrong. it may take you half a minute to google or get it from shia sources - but we have to look up in books and you know, actually read them.


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in the other thread, you tried to insinuate against alahazrat, and tried half quotes - when you were refuted, you moved on as if you had nothing to do with it.

same with the 'names of sayyiduna ali's children' thread. you tried to insinuate that the three khulafa had something against sayyiduna ali; when you found out that you couldn't push that, you simply switched the tone to one of non-commitment.

in another thread, you quickly switched the boat. "i never said that, and you are framing me," you said.

sunnistudent has been refuting you, but you simply write a one-liner: 'it proves nothing'.

this is wasting our time. our forum is not to pamper to your kind - go to tahir riaz's forum where you will be lauded and heralded. i have received requests to ban you, but we have kept it open for some more time. just imagine, if a couple of qadianis and nasibis and wahabis like you - who have nothing useful to contribute, except setting fires, pop on this forum, then we will have nothing else to do.

if i ban a qadiani or a rafidi or a wahabi, that qadiani will go and whine in his forums that we are afraid and we are speechless and so forth. not that we don't have an answer, but i cannot spend my life teaching every idiot to read the next line.

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when we corner you, you play the mazlum card: "oh, i am oppressed. i am so meek and nice, but you are bossing around. you cannot answer, therefore you turn to threats.."

you can fool some foolish and ignorant people who think your cut-n-paste is some rare gift, and your own ilk; but sunnis on our forum have seen that you, like your pir abdu'l qadir are frauds.

sure.

sadly, i have been missing deadlines for a while now. i still do not have time, and i have been occupied with this because of your setting fires.

just as a refresh, please list those questions which i have not answered (and number them please so we know how many).

certainly, it was a mistake when i joined in, and i should have kept away. as for hasanayn shah's speech, (many say gg and hasanayn are the same person - Allah ta'ala knows best) i have not made a commitment and i will not answer on that topic for now. you can draw whatever conclusions you want about this.

there is another serious flaw with refuting posts on a forum. the cornered rat can get away easily - but not so, with a written document which can be referenced and people can look it up quickly. not everyone follows the whole thread, and people can manipulate threads (making adjustments, and changing stances).

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wa billahi't tawfiq.