Debate 5th May 2011 Data Darbar Sunnis VS Tafzilis in Pakistan

Would be good if Mufakkir e Islam can debate the afzaliat issue also.

 

Just to let everyone know the debate date and time has been fixed Alhumdulillah! The debate will take place on Monday 13th June after Maghrib. Venue will be decided tomorrow. 6 people from each side will be allowed to sit in the room. Each side will have 1 camera man each in the room. Everyone do dua INSHALLAH that Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib learn from this debate.

 

The Debate will happen on the slogan Haqchaaryaar. Mufti Muhammad Aslam Bandialvi Sahib explained why the slogan is important and what are the reasons behind these guys stopping this slogan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGVMpVx7WDQ

 

prof.tahir's video is moved to a different thread here.

 

what is rather disturbing - is the description of the video, labelling the opposing party as khawarij and nawasib. all this is rather ironical in relation to the contents of pg. 160 of zubdah.

 

I've just seen the 9 May video and Syed Zubai Shah who is supposed to debate on behalf of Pir Abdul Qadir Shah says that someone who has a problem with Nara-e-Tehkeeq isn't a sunni!!!!!!

 

Abu Fazl looks like e17 is getting itself into a mess and Jalali Sahib has got you into a tangle. If you debate him the whole world will know you are Tafzilis

 

Looks like all the Pir Abdul Qadir lovers have left this site. Anyway, the last link that I have gave where Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib give a message to Pir Sahib. Their is also a clip of Dr Tahir ul Qadri Sahib in it.

Basically someone does a Naray Takbeer, Risalat, Haideri and Ghosia.

He has said that this is not the way of the Sunnis as there should be one for the Sahaba and Khulafa Rashidin.

Someone then shouts out Naray Tahqeeq, and he says Haq Chaar Yaar. He then says that our Maslak e Ahle Sunnat is based on respect, of Allah, the Prophet, Ahle Bait, Sahaba, Awliya etc.

He says that some people just say Naray Risalat, but thats wrong cos you have to firstly to Naray Takbeer.

I was curious because Mufakkir e Islam Peer Syed Abdul Qadir Shah Jilani said in one of their small speeches related to the debate that was supposed to happen, that there were 10 people from Minhaj ul Quran that went to Data Darbar to debate Mufti Abid Jalali on the topic Naray Tahqeeq Ka Jawab. But then we have Dr Professor Tahir ul Qadri giving a reply to Naray Tahqeeq as Haq Chaar Yaar not Haq Sab Yaar. So can we say that Dr Sahib is rejecting the rest of the Sahaba being on HAQ, similar to Peer Syed Irfan Shah Mashadi who also does this Nara, for who a lot of people, including Mufakkir e Islam, accuses of rejecting all the Sahaba being on HAQ.

In reply to this a famous Yanabi.com member has come out with the worlds most bogus excuse to defend Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib. He writes:

But to answer the topic at hand

Mufakkir e Islam prefers HAQ SAB YAR but DOES NOT reject 4 Yar as some have claimed.

What we reject is replacing Nara Haidari with Nara Tahqeeq - which has become common place among specific groups that I will not name

If this was the case, why have him and his followers stopped the slogan in mosques. His mureed recently beat some one up who chanted this slogan. Why is he debating with Mufti Sahib then? Give us one video or proof where Mufti Sahib or any other Sunni Scholar has stopped Nara Haideri? Just because you guys have been caught out you have come out with this bogus reply. I don't see Pir Abdul Qadir replying to this!

 

Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib New Message to Pir Abdul Qadir 09/05/11:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px6j6-Jv3e8

 

Their will be a debate Brother, Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib failed to attend the 5th May date but Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib said he still will debate him when he comes to Pakistan. He is going on 1st June.

 

so there isn't going to be a debate?

 

I can't believe this, how can Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib claim that 10 top scholars of Minhaj ul Quran took his side and went to support him in a debate with Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib? On the topic of Nara Tahqeeq Haqchaaryaar, when according to Dr Tahir ul Qadri Sahib their is nothing wrong with the slogan and he asked the audience listening to his lecture to make sure then proclaim this slogan before Nara Haideri because this is the way of the Ahlus Sunnah!

Check for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU45Nas3iCk

It means first Pir Abdul Qadir and Dr Tahir ul Qadri Sahib need to have a debate amongst themselves on this slogan.

Yanabi.com lot are quick to attack Shah Sahib when he said that you must proclaim this slogan before Nara Haideri and they call him a Kharji. Is Dr Tahir ul Qadri the same for them now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRrFnCBQ7O8

Also everyone notice that Yanabi.com and Pir Abdul Qadir followers have ignored all the recent posts, looks like they have disappeared!

 

Brother Abu Hasan if you were amused looking at the last clip, look at this one, its the leader this time! Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib announce victory sitting in the UK when the debate was meant to be in Pakistan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ahXkMNtbI&feature=channel_video_title

They have provided no proof what so ever from Data Darbar Shareef to prove anyone went.

Woww exclusive image of Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib and other ulema waiting in Data Darbar Shareef look everyone:

Abdul Qadir Shah's Waiting for Manazra On 05 May 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge2UMza4u9w&feature=channel_video_title

hahahah look at Pir Abdul Qadir follower talking to Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib, here is video proof! Where did they shut Mufti Sahib up?

Abdul Qadrir Shah Ko Return Ticket ki Offer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmuaC-5lumQ&feature=channel_video_title

Looks like they got caught in the act! They said they will give him a return ticket as well.

Challenging in hot air and when the challenge is accepted they get angry that why is someone accepting their challenge.

Hazrat Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib Data Darbar Shareef Hazri:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXS9geS6xM&feature=channel_video_title

Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib leaving Data Dabar Shareef:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Kz2HuAnJc&feature=channel_video_title

It would of been good if Pir Abdul Qadir went because Mufti Sahib did say they would leave no stone unturned and talk on everything in the debate.

Anyway Mufti Sahib has agreed to debate again.

Just one note, on Yanabi.com Pir Abdul Qadir followers were saying Mufti Sahib never went but after watching these videos we can find out who went.

On Yanabi.com few mureeds of Pir Abdul Qadir are saying Pir Sayyid Irfan Shah Sahib is the main person behind all this and why doesn't he debate etc. I will mention this clearly, tell your Pir to challenge Shah Sahib with name for a debate then we will see if Shah Sahib debate him or not!

Your Molvi Nisar Baig was quick to name Pir Auladdin Siddiqui Sahib and challenge him for a debate, why can't any of your Molvis or your Pir do this for Shah Sahib? Is it because Pir Auladdin Siddiqui isn't a debater and you know what you will expect from Shah Sahib?

Also I totally agree with you Brother Abu Hasan about him boasting about being a Sayyid. Their are many Sayyids throughout the world no one boasts on his family link as much as him. Even to the extent that in their mehfil posters and when they invite him they say or write Nawasaye Rasool (Sallalalo Alahi Wa Sallam) or in a recent video he was saying to Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib that you read my grandfathers Kalmah. Surely someone like Imam E Hassan or Imam E Hussain Ra or Imam Jaffar Sadiq Ra or great awliyah should be allowed to say this. I remember Sayyid Irfan Shah Sahib Mashadi who his from the family of Sayiduna Imam Moosa Kazim Ra, Shah Sahib often say that I have never claimed to be a high syed, he said the successful one will be the one who is successful on the day of judgment otherwise all these links will remain here!

Another funny thing now is mureeds of Pir Abdul Qadir are saying these debates shouldn't take place on Darbars etc. The reason why Mufti Sahib choose Data Darbar was because their is a big gathering of Sunni Public and they will be aware of his beliefs since he often gos running to Data Darbar to do speeches. He went Golra Shareef last year in a matter of 2 days canceling all his mehfils to attend the wedding of Pir Syed Naseeruddin Shah Sahibs Ra sons wedding. But he couldn't make it to the debate when it was announced on the 17th of April! Anyway back to the point, if debates shouldn't be on Darbars, why has their Pir chose Golra Shareef to do a debate?

 

i was quite amused by the garrulous speaker running away with the microphone claiming victory posted below. this one, so there is no confusion.

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in a flight of fancy, the speaker says: 'data sahib would say such and such etc., etc.,' and then boasts about sayyids. while it might be true that pir abdu'l qadir sahib is a sayyid (or other sayyids in his group), they simply do not have exclusive rights for being sayyids nor any guarantee that anything ONLY THEY SAY is attested by their greater and nobler forefathers like data sahib.

----
anyway, i asked myself what would data sahib say. in his book kashf al-maHjub as i turned a few pages, i chanced upon a couple of very interesting anecdotes.

------

Imam Dawud al-Ta'ayi, the great ascetic came to Imam J'afar al-Sadiq and said: 'O son of the Messenger sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, give me counsel; my heart has become dark.'

The Imam said: 'O Abu Sulayman, you are a great ascetic - what need is there for me to give you counsel?'

Imam Dawud said: 'You are the son of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, and have superiority in the world and it is necessary for you to give me advice.'

Imam Ja'afar said: O Abu Sulayman, I am myself afraid all the time and worried [on how to answer] if on the morrow (the day of Judgement) my grandfather questions me: 'why did you not follow me (mutaba'at) as it was due' - because, following the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is not related to established ancestry or firm relationship [to him]; but rather in deeds and in being righteous in the presence of Allah ta'ala.

Imam Dawud said: O Allah! When a person whose very clay is kneaded with the water of prophethood and in whose nature is found truth and proof; who grandfather is the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and whose mother is the noble lady Fatimah raDiyallahu anhaa; and he is himself worried about his own salvation, how can Dawud be content upon his own deeds?

----
In another anecdote, Imam Ja'afar told his slaves: 'Come let us make a pledge that whosoever is forgiven on the day of judgement will do intercession for others.'

His slaves said: 'O son of the Messenger! sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. Where is the need of our intercession for you, as your noble grandfather is himself the intercessor of the entire creation.'

Imam Ja'afar said: 'I am ashamed of my deeds, and I do not have the courage to face my grandfather sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.'

----
​

Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

Re: Debate on 5th May

I do believe their should be a debate in the Tafzil topic, as well as the related issues.

I do not understand why Hazarat Pir Abdul Qadir Shah's Camp are not providing their video footage evidence.

Looking at videos on the Internet from both of the Camps including Mufti Muhammad Abid Jalali Sahibs' Camp, they are providing all the evidence in terms of Video footage and the Ahabarat cuttings.

I have just seen the video released by Pir Abdul Qadir Shah Sahib relaying their version of the events, and all they have mentioned is a list of Ullemah and no video footage.

I also don't understand why Pir Abdul Qadir Shah's Camp are claiming victory whilst they are still in the UK.

It is clear to see, who has won this debate?

 

Pir Syed Irfan Shah Sahib Speech Before The Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imlWRUdXdfo

Munazir E Ahlesunnat Mufti Muhammad Abid Jalali Sahib Speech Before The Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFuPkllzabU&feature=channel_video_title

Hazrat Moulana Fida Hussain Rizvi Sahib on Pir Abdul Qadir not turning up for the Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHYM-3ThqN4&feature=channel_video_title

Hazrat Mufti Mukhtar Hussain Rizvi Sahib on Pir Abdul Qadir not turning up for the Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dozD6mgmNZE&feature=channel_video_title

Munazir E Ahlesunnat Hazrat E Allama Moulana Ghulam Murtaza Saqi Sahib on Pir Abdul Qadir not turning up for the Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uKUwmDlOOY&feature=channel_video_title

Munazir E Ahlesunnat Hazrat E Allama Mufti Kashif Iqbal Madni Sahib on Pir Abdul Qadir not turning up for the Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfU_ofOxxWY&feature=channel_video_title

Tahir Riaz on Yanabi.com said that Mufti Muhammad Abid Jalali Sahib didn't turn up for the debate at Data Darbar Shareef, its time he opened his eyes. Here is a video of Mufti Sahib sitting right outside Data Darbar Shareef yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WN4qTKjnBY&feature=channel_video_title

Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib clearly say in this recording he is willing to debate Pir Abdul Qadir even when he comes to Pakistan in June. Subhan ALLAH Mufti Sahib Zindabaad! 17th April Mufti Sahib announced yesterdays date but Pir Abdul Qadir didn't turn up!

Mufti Muhammad Abid Jalali Sahib did say if the debate would happen they would talk on all topics including Tafzil because they are all linked.

But funny enough the only debater they had Syed Zubair Shah Sahib:
Pir Abdul Qadir Number One Debater - Syed Zubair Ahmed Shah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIGPO9GTerk

They didn't take Syed Zubair Shah with them and we can tell why in this link. Syed Zubair Shah was sitting in Islamabad at Golra Shareef. The main person they took in lahore was Syed Khizar Hussain Chisti, Khizar Hussain Chisti is a naat writer and not a debater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD7ZCBH2Un0&feature=related

This is why none of them come forward to debate with Mufti Sahib. They were standing at the back and then walked off.

Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib and his camp agreed with debating this lot, but they said we will only debate you if you agree that if you loose the debate it is Pir Abdul Qadir Sahibs loss but Anwar Shah Kazmi didn't agree and walked off!

Last thing, Mufti Muhammad Abid Jalali Sahib camp have added videos online from Data Darbar Shareef when will this lot add theirs? Also how come Syed Mazhar Shah Gillani has announced victory of the debate when he is sitting in the UK? How funny is this?

 

Videos of the Sunnis at Data Sahib

http://www.youtube.com/user/sedharasta4u

Tafzilis claim victory lol Mufakir e Islam was in E17 on the day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuTdF00n0Ug&feature=player_embedded

 

Mufti Abid Jalali Sahib Latest Reply on Debate Issue 04/05/11

 

could someone please give us an objective (non-emotional) historical background into this slogan issue?

 

I agree with Brother Abu Hasan's post. As for this slogan debate issue, it was all started of by Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib and his molvis like Muzzamil Shah who stopped these slogans and had fights in mosques because of this slogan. Then Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib wrote a pamphlet in pakistan refuting this slogan and said it was started of by Wahabis. This is why the Ulema in Pakistan at the time picked up on this, as for this Tafzil issue it opened up after in Pakistan.

I also agree and I do think Pir Abdul Qadir Shah Sahib boast to much on their ancestry and it looks like other muslims are nothing in his eyes.

This is what you would call a pure Sayyid:

look at Pir Sayyid Irfan Shah Sahib message to Syeds (this whole speech was on Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdKlcqhPM (SUBHAN ALLAH!)