Attributing Zamaan, Makaan, Jism and Jihah to Allah

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Abū Dharr, May 28, 2022.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but, but...

    a brother recently shared a pic where shaykh asrar is sitting alongside this tauqir. previously, they got together for some palestine related event. perhaps tauqir has made his secret confession (as it has happened in the past) and sh.asrar will not refute him like he did tauqir's binlaw at shahid's graduation.

    the time since then doesn't seem to have been much, but it looks we have come very far.

    people ask me what does sh. asrar stand for? why does he 'boldly' refute someone and ignores someone else?
    what is the methodology of being harsh with some people - but completely ignore some others? is it based on principles or just personal relations?

    i still don't understand sh.asrar's zero tolerance policy and blunt criticism of people committing bid'ah in actions; but skirts criticism about people who have bid'ah in aqidah! it was not the case a few years ago, and admirers please don't point to videos of the old sh.asrar.

    ---
     
  2. TruthWinner

    TruthWinner New Member

    Statement 6 is correct just by the words. The problem is the so called Salafis say that Allah is above the throne in terms of direction or place. Or sometimes they deny place but admit direction but literal direction necessitates a location/place/space
     
  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2024
  4. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

  5. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Yes, fawq (above/beyond) is also used for stature and standing, Imam ibn Jawzi explains in his baaz al ashhab thus with an example, i.e. it is said "fulaanuN fawqa fulaanin", that is, so-and-so is above (in stature/standing than) so-and-so, it is a very common expression.

    whereas, being above or beyond with respect to space is an attribute of bodies, and Allah Ta'ala is exalted from being a body because bodies are created things and Allah Subhanu was Ta'ala is the creator, wa qala Allahu Ta'ala fi sha'nihi - laisa kamithlihi shay'

    لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِۦ شَىْءٌ ۖ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلْبَصِيرُ


    Snap 2022-03-10 at 16.42.41.png
     
  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    As Noori explained, "above" means "beyond"(i.e. "transcends")
     
  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    [
    what do you understand from "mazhar of zaat"?
     
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    The Throne is the limit of space, Allah Ta'ala is above the Throne with His Ilm and Qudrah, here the word "above" does not mean in a literal and physical sense because there is no space beyond the Throne, and there is no above or beyond (i.e. further in distance) in fact. This is sunni aqidah.

    the guy who gave this argument does not know wahabi aqidah.
     
    sherkhan likes this.
  9. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

    how would we refute this Wahabi argument. 1. The Throne is the last creation.
    2. Place is a creation.
    3. The boundary of place is until the Throne. (1, 2)
    4. Above the Throne there's no place. (3)
    5. Allah is above the Throne.
    6. Allah is above the Throne without being in a place. (3, 4, 5)
     
  10. SunniSaifi

    SunniSaifi New Member

    How do we understand that "the prophet is the mazhar of Allahs zaat"... I hope allama abu hasan can elaborate.
     
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I didn't listen to him saying that lamakan is fauq al harsh in the video; however, his explanation is a bit confusing.

    also saying that "Allah kay liay lamkan sabit hay" can lead to misunderstanding even though it can also be interpreted favorably.

    In an older video, he has said that "Allah kainat main hay", which is more problematic than what he has said in the above vid, but this was a slip of the tongue or improper choosing of words as he categorically has explained his aqidah in this and some other videos.

    I would not say that he alaihi afDalus salatu wasslam was in lamkan with his body, as mufti sahab has said, as you know it goes against rationality and leads to many incorrect statements/beliefs. Instead, I would explain it thus - though I have not read it anywhere in explicit words - the presence of our beloved Prophet alaihi afDalus salatu wasslam as the limit of makan, i.e. when the Prophet alaihi afDalus salatu wasslam was present on Arsh, he alaihi afDalus salatu wassalm was the limit of makan, and this proves that he alaihi afDalus salatu wassalam is the wasita/wasila to reach in the court of Allah Ta'la for every creation including Arsh.

    I would request side AH to correct me if my explanation is wrong or leads to other problems.
     
  13. Nissaar

    Nissaar New Member

    If we listen to the whole video, we would understand what is meant by makan and he explains that Allah is saying Allah has a Makan it is kufr.

    For Laa Makan is above Arsh I understood he is referring to the Prophet SWALLALLAHU ALAIHI WA SALAM
     
  14. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

  15. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    This was posted earlier in the thread.
     
  16. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    'above' meaning 'exclusion' not the direction.
     
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  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I could not find a pdf of al Baazu'l Ashhab by ibn Jawzi rahimahullah, but here is an indirect quote refuting this nonsense.

    Screenshot_2021-10-02-00-54-42-02_f541918c7893c52dbd1ee5d319333948.jpg
    Screenshot_2021-10-02-01-39-14-42_f541918c7893c52dbd1ee5d319333948.jpg
     
  19. HasanM10

    HasanM10 New Member

    Where is Allah?

    The Most High transcends His creation, He is above and beyond all things. This means He does not dwell in space nor have limits nor boundaries, rather Allah is above all of that and free from any resemblance with the creation or in-dwelling in it.

    As is indicated by clear evidence, place is created. Allah is however uncreated. Before the creation of the heavens and the Earth there was nothing with Him, He was without space below Him and without space above Him and then He created the throne (creating place). This is what we are taught in a Hadith of Imam at-Tirmidhi's Sunan, Kitab at-Tafsir.

    The scholars like Imam al-Bayhaqi also quoted the clear Hadith of Sahih Muslim, the Dua which mentions that there is nothing above Allah nor anything below Him. This same Dua also confirms His being beyond time. Regarding Allah's absolute aboveness there are so many other Ahadith such as the famous Hadith of the slave girl. In fact this doctrine is first and foremost found in the Qur'an, for Allah negates any resemblance between Him and anything else, meaning He cannot be like anything He can create (and He can certainly create any physical form). He also stated that His noble slaves fear Him above them.

    The Heresy of Jahm bin Safwan

    The Sahabah would even teach each other the Dua of Sahih Muslim to say before going to bed before every night. This was the firm creed of the Salaf.

    Then came a man who was a student of a famous heretic who denied Human Choice. This was Jahm bin Safwan. He taught many heresies. He negated the attributes of Allah until it was clear he did not think his creator was anything. He did this evidently due to a desire to avoid falling into Tashbih (assimilating the Creator with His creation), but by doing so he fell into the opposite heresy of Ta'til (negation of the Creator).

    He thought to himself, "Allah cannot be with limits and boundaries, therefore he is without limits," and this is correct. But he misunderstood this and took it to mean that the Dhat of Allah continues forever and is everywhere. So he believed his creator was everywhere, present in the creation, immanent.

    The like of him today are the fools who in fear of Tashbih say Allah is everywhere without limits. Like Jahm they misinterpret certain unclear verses and in doing so deny other verses including clear ones.

    This doctrine is Kufr. Jahm who held it was a Kafir. He was executed.

    The Heresy of Muqatil bin Sulayman

    Never does one form of misguidance take root, but some ignoramous will come along and attempt to refute it yet in doing so they will go beyond the Qur'an and Sunnah and innovate a misguidance themselves.

    There came a commentator of the Qur'an who was also a well known story-teller. Disgusted at the teachings of Jahm bin Safwan, he opposed him and debated him. He believed he was defending the Sunnah, for Ahlus Sunnah used to say, "Allah is above the Throne" and "Allah is above the Heaven".

    He therefore took to opposing Jahm's Ta'til, by instead being as explicit as possible in affirmation, till he went to an extreme in it, likening his Creator with his creation. It is even suggested that he fabricated reports to do this - certainly he is not taken from in the field of Hadith. He likened the attributes of Allah to his creation, until some report that he would affirm limbs for his Creator and even skin and blood, all whilst saying that in all of this, "He does not resemble the creation".

    He thought to himself, "Allah is above the Throne as the people of knowledge say, His aboveness is explicit in the Quran and Sunnah," and this is correct. But he misunderstood this and took it to mean that the Dhat of Allah is in one particular place spatially confined above the creation. So he believed is creator is in one place, dwelling in the creation, immanent.

    The like of him today are the fools who in fear of Ta'til say Allah is in one place with limits/boundaries. And some of them fearing that Ahlus Sunnah might make Takfir of them instead make Tawaqquf, saying the doctrine of the righteous Salaf to negate place for him is impermissible, and that they neither confirm nor deny place for him, like the earlier innovators who said, "neither is the Qur'an created nor uncreated". Like Muqatil they misinterpret the unclear verses and in doing so negate other verses including clear ones.

    The doctrine of Muqatil is Kufr. Some of the Salaf wished to kill Muqatil, and evidently according to their view he was a Kafir.

    Summary

    Some might think regarding these ancient heresies that the Ulama of the past refute at length in their works are the sole preserve of Jahm, Muqatil, Ibn Manda and the like and that there are none of the present period who teach their falsehood. This "Shaykh" Tauqir Ishaq is a perfect example of them being mistaken. Amongst the most ignorant and extreme section of the pseudo-Salafis one also finds explicit Tashbih.

    Here is a simple rule to remember:

    To believe Allah is in every place is Kufr.
    To believe Allah is in one place is Kufr.

    The Sunnah is to believe Allah is above and beyond all things, above the Earth, above the Heavens and above the Throne. He is separate from his creation.
    The Sunnah is to believe He is not in a place.

    We believe in all of the Qur'an and do not make baseless interpretations of the Ayat al-Mutashabihat.

    May Allah destroy the Jahmiyyah and the Muqatiliyyah.
     
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam sanusi said in his muqaddimat that it is necessary to understand the fundamental principles of this science. these are basic tools.

    only fools will attempt to climb a steep clip with sharp and jagged edges, without equipment, without provisions, without shoes even.

    ---
    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    ================================
    imam sanusi explains this lucidly in his sharh al-muqaddimat.

    he pulls up a strawman:
    to say "Allah is not here or is not anywhere" then goes against a number of verses of (the) Quran.

    who said not 'anywhere'?

    we only said that Allah does not exist within His creation as it implies 'dependence'. so where does He exist? He exists beyond space and time.

    how? it is here you give the answer: "we do not know how"

    ---
    as for the verses of the Qur'an. he did not get the memo. the golden rule concerning all the verses is that such descriptions are idiomatic usage.


    how will you answer a hindu who says: "god exists in this idol, because you said He is everywhere. why do you call me a mushrik then?"

     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
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