Qadr: Qadarīyyah beliefs among the masses

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Jun 23, 2022.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Yes, this is where you are mistaken, shaykh abu Adam says (explanation is brackets from noori);

    "This presumed ability (of choosing b/w good or evil) however is created by Allah and according to His Will (i.e. He willed that He will let us choose), just as the actual choice made in the end (is created by Him, because it is our action too).

    He let us choose and created our actual actions, it does not mean that He decided for us what we will choose; however, He creates that will, and based on our choosing (which is also created) he creates the actual actions we perform.
     
  2. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    also the shaykh clearly says, "The conclusion is that humans have a choice and a will, but their choices and will are creations of Allah. The difference between this and being forced is the difference between what we feel are voluntary acts, such as standing up to walk into another room, and involuntary acts, such as sleepwalking. We are accountable for the former, but not the latter." https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/...e-are-many-verses-and-hadiths-to-that-effect/
     
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  3. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    framework of the divine will* typo.
     
  4. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Ok so the jabrīyyah are like this:

    Allāh wills Ridwan to steal at time (t1). Allāh wills Ridwan's hair to grow at time (t2).
    They do not separate from involuntary and voluntary actions. Everything falls under Allāhs will, without us having any will on our part. We are all like robots.

    Ahlus Sunnah is like this:

    Allāh wills Ridwan to steal at time (t1) with his own free-will (intention). This is a voluntary action (since ridwans will is included within the framework of the divine work) .
    Allāh wills ridwan's hair to grow at time (t2). This is an involuntary action (since there is no will from ridwan here).

    It cannot be said that Ridwan was forced to steal. Yes, it was inevitable he'd steal, but free-will comes with intention, not lack of inevitability.
    What is jabr (being forced/compelled)? to be forced to do something against one's will.
     
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  5. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I am not denying we choose things. we have the ability to commit the act of choosing. We perform acts. but Allāh creates them. also you said i misunderstood the shaykh. Yet look at what you highlighted from what the shaykh said:

    "This presumed ability however is created by Allah and according to His Will, just as the actual choice made in the end.
     
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  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    explain what is jabr then? how is it any different from a jabri aqidah?
     
  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    unfortunately, you have misunderstood shaykh abu adam's reply, he clearly states that;
     
  8. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    This is what I used to believe before becoming more practicing. That Allāh created us, created within us our will. Then, with this created will, we choose between different options, but this choosing of ours is not created by Allāh but only known by Allāh. but the hadīth is clear; his actions have already been decided by Allāh and not merely written.

    If you agree that Allāh creates everything, including our actions,
    1) Allāh creates our actions
    2) To choose is an action
    3) Allāh creates our act of choosing

    So before we choose a instead of b, Allāh creates our act of us choosing a instead of b. It is impossible for us to perform an act without it being created by Allāh. So if Allāh is creating our act of choosing a instead of b, it cannot be said that Allāh just knew we would choose a; He decided we would choose a, He was the very creator of that event.

    Think of 1) I know what a person is going to do,
    and
    2) I am going to create/decide what a person will do and also know what a person will do.
     
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  9. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Ok but assume good. Husn ad-dhan. I am not trying to troll, just trying to strive for what I believe to be the haqq.
     
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  10. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Allah Ta'ala created our will, He created good and evil for us to choose from, but He Subhanu wa Ta'ala did not decide what we would do. Since He Subhanu was Ta'ala is all-knowing, He Subhanu wa Ta'ala knew what we would choose to do; therefore, He Subhanu was Ta'ala had it written down, and this is the meaning of the hadith of Abdullah bin Masud raDiyAllahu a'nh you quoted.
     
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  12. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    But I do not say, like the jabrīyyah say, that Allāh just decides we will do things like robots without any free-will on our part. He decided what we will do, but also decided we would do things with our own will. hence, we cannot say we are being forced/compelled because to be forced to do something is to be forced to do something against our will.
     
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  13. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    What do you think of the following hadīth:


    Narrated `Abdullāh bin Mas'ūd:

    Allāh's Messenger (ﷺ), the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes an 'alaqah (congealed clinging substance) for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allāh sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise." Sahīh al-Bukhārī 3208.

    فَإِنَّ الرَّجُلَ مِنْكُمْ لَيَعْمَلُ حَتَّى مَا يَكُونُ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الْجَنَّةِ إِلاَّ ذِرَاعٌ، فَيَسْبِقُ عَلَيْهِ كِتَابُهُ، فَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ النَّارِ، وَيَعْمَلُ حَتَّى مَا يَكُونُ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ النَّارِ إِلاَّ ذِرَاعٌ، فَيَسْبِقُ عَلَيْهِ الْكِتَابُ، فَيَعْمَلُ بِعَمَلِ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ
     
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  14. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    This hadīth is haqq. Allāh wrote everything that would occur. Intending to perform a good deed without physically acting on it is itself a good deed. If he intends and performs it, its multiplied. If he intended to do evil but did not do it, this is a good deed. If intended and performed, its only one evil deed.
     
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  15. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I'm sorry, but your claim of contradiction is false. Allāh's will has always existed pre-eternally, hence it is not contingent on anything. However, Allāh has willed that we would do something with our own will. Our will depends on him, not the other way around, hence our will is contingent, not His.
     
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  16. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    Please do explain this hadith for me:

    On the authority of Ibn Abbas (RadhiyAllahu ‘anhuma), from the Messenger of Allah (SallaAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam), from what he has related from his Lord is:

    “Verily Allah has written down the good deeds and the evil deeds”, and then explained it [by saying]: “Whosoever intended to perform a good deed, but did not do it, then Allah writes it down with Himself as a complete good deed. And if he intended to perform it and did perform it, then Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds up to seven hundred fold, up to many times multiplied. And if he intended to perform an evil deed, but did not do it, then Allah writes it down with Himself as a complete good deed. And if he intended it [i.e., the evil deed] and then performed it, then Allah writes it down as one evil deed.”

    [Reported by Bukhari & Muslim]
     
  17. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    I'm sorry, but this is contradictory. This would also mean that Allah's will in contingent on our free will.
     
  18. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Yes, if someone presses x on a controller, this is free-will. No doubt. But one must understand before one was created, Allāh not only knew that a person would press x on a controller at a certain time, but Allāh also decided/willed this person would press x at a certain time with his own free-will. Notice how Allāh is willing this person would do something (pressing x) with his own will (intention). So we have free-will, however, this falls under the decision/will of Allāh. If a person rejects that Allāh wills/decides/create what we do, this is falling into the same camp of qadarīyyah beliefs/mu'tazilah, etc...
     
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  19. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    I swear by Allāh Azzawajal I have never posted anything before, rather, I recently became a member. Do you have any adab that you accuse a Muslim brother.

    Also, do you reject that Allāh decided what people will do pre-eternally and that He creates our actions, falling into the same beliefs as the qadarīyyah?

    By the way, https://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/...e-are-many-verses-and-hadiths-to-that-effect/
     
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  20. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    If people played video games or understood world building in such games should be able to understand many kalam points.

    Brother when you hit 'x' on the controller, that was your intention. You chose to press x . All the visual/animated effects that occur due to pressing 'x' is the game mechanic. I hope you know where I am going with this.
     

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