Qadr: Qadarīyyah beliefs among the masses

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Jun 23, 2022.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @Ahlesaabiqoon
    before you post any more articles, i would like to know some more about you: please note that any post of yours after this notice will be deleted until you clarify.

    1. are you able to read arabic?

    2. have you read kalam works in arabic? (let me specific: about THIS point of jabr and qadar)

    3. if you have, can you mention the names of works you have read?

    4. the statements you have made (i assume cut-and-paste from websites) - are they your own translations or copy-paste or 'conclusions derived from material in english'

    5. are you able to translate/annotate the terms you have used in english: inevitable, will, decide, choices, back into the appropriate arabic term? (the reason is one can use any word and then claim that they meant the specific arabic term)

    6. Will you be able to cite arabic passages for any of your propositions, conclusions?

    the above questions are for a reason - to save you and us a lot of trouble. without a good knowledge of arabic, and a sound understanding of terms/definitions in arabic - we will keep going in circles.

    ----
    as brother noori said, you are the twin of the other bro who thoroughly got confused and kept saying things like "black is white and white is white." and keep flitting between will and creation and choice and intention...

    ----
    you are confused and you think that everyone else is as confused as you are. it is amusing how you keep contradicting yourself and then so confidently deny that it is a contradiction.

    this is not disputed. Allah ta'ala creates everything. read my posts in the other thread.

    you said:
    but you also said:
    the problem here is you added DECIDED along with created and attributed it to ahlus sunnah.

    The second is that Allāh has not only known what would happen but also creates people's actions and willed/decided their actions for them.

    in the above, "willed" and "decided" are translations of which arabic words?

    ----
    the number of fallacies you commit simply show that you have to read a lot (more than english translations) and train your mind to form a logically sound argument.

    how many muslims have you interviewed who said that "Allah does not create what we will do?"

    and you sneaked in the "decide" - these are two separate statements one is true and the other is false.


    However, when a Muslim hears this, he thinks this means that Allāh knows what we will do but does not *create * what we will do.
    this is false. every muslim believes that Allah ta'ala creates our actions.

    However, when a Muslim hears this, he thinks this means that Allāh knows what we will do but does *decide * what we will do.
    this is true. Allah ta'ala did not *DECIDE* that: 'this is what zayd SHOULD do'

    ----
    the below "conclusion" is utter nonsense. white is white and black is also white.
    you can paint the car ANY colour so long as it is black.

    if Allah *decided* (WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD HERE?) what we do - what is the status of our own will?

    if Allah *decided* zayd SHOULD sin - then zayd WILL sin. how can zayd exercise his own free will of NOT-SINNING?

    you keep conflating "deciding" with "creating"
    what is the point of "free" will if zayd cannot exercise it? can zayd choose to sin or not-sin? if Allah has already decided for him that he should sin - how can he exercise his "free will" to NOT-SIN?

    ====
    we used to warn people of becoming mujtahids by reading translations of the qur'an and hadith. we have a new breed of mutakallimin who can neither read the qur'an nor hadith, nor any kalam work in arabic - but their kalam expertise is based on english translations and articles! sub'HanAllah.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2022
  2. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    1) We can't will to do anything unless Allāh wills.
    2) We will to choose A over B
    Conclusion) Therefore, Allāh willed, we would will to choose A over B

    Premise 1 is clearly proven in Qur'ān, Sunnah, reason.
    Premise 2 is obvious through everyone's first hand experience.
    The conclusion must follow the premises.
    If you accept the premises, but reject the conclusion, this is an obvious error.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  3. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Allāh knows everything will happen. So it is inevitable.
    Allāh has also decided everything will happen. so it is inevitable.

    It is inevitable from both aspects.

    You say, "is it inevitable because Allah decided that Zaid will perform action A, or is it inevitable because it is in His knowledge that Zaid will choose A? the former is jabr, the later is not."

    Allāh deciding zaid performing action A is not jabr if Allāh decided Zaid will perform it with his own free-will. The free-will of the human is harmonious with Allāh' will (when it comes to voluntary actions).
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  4. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    it is a simple and straightforward question.
    is it inevitable because Allah decided that Zaid will perform action A, or is it inevitable because it is in His knowledge that Zaid will choose A? the former is jabr, the later is not.
     
    Aqdas likes this.
  5. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    1) We can't will to do anything unless Allāh wills.
    2) We will to choose A over B
    Conclusion) Therefore, Allāh willed, we would will to choose A over B
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  6. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Jabir bin 'Abdullah narrated that the Messenger of Allāh (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) said:
    'A slave (of Allāh) shall not believe until he believes in Al-Qadr, its good and its bad, such that he knows that what struck him would not have missed him, and that what missed him would not have struck him."

    حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْخَطَّابِ، زِيَادُ بْنُ يَحْيَى الْبَصْرِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَيْمُونٍ، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ يُؤْمِنُ عَبْدٌ حَتَّى يُؤْمِنَ بِالْقَدَرِ خَيْرِهِ وَشَرِّهِ حَتَّى يَعْلَمَ أَنَّ مَا أَصَابَهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِيُخْطِئَهُ وَأَنَّ مَا أَخْطَأَهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِيُصِيبَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عُبَادَةَ وَجَابِرٍ وَعَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو ‏.‏ وَهَذَا حَدِيثٌ غَرِيبٌ لاَ نَعْرِفُهُ إِلاَّ مِنْ حَدِيثِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ‏.‏ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَيْمُونٍ مُنْكَرُ الْحَدِيثِ ‏.‏

    Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2144
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  7. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Loaded questions which I will dissect.

    Allāh willed that zaid will choose action A with his own free-will.

    If by must, you mean inevitable, then yes, it is inevitable. if by must, you mean without zayd's own free-will, this is jabr and this is rejected.

    If you merely say that Allāh has given zayd a choice between a and b, and that when when zayd willed to choose A over B, and you reject that Allāh willed for zayd to will to choose A, this is qadarīyyah belief.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Did Allah will that Zaid must will to choose action A, or did He will that Zaid can choose either A or B? the former is jabr, the later is not.
     
    Aqdas likes this.
  9. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Allāh wills our choices. This doesnt mean we dont have a will of our own.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  10. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Brother, Allāh decides everything, however, He decides we will choose either a or b with our own will, hence there is no jabr.

    If I choose A, Allāh, from pre-eternity, decided I would choose A, however, he decided I would choose A with my own free-will/intention, hence there is no jabr.

    1)Choosing a instead of b is an action
    2) Allāh creates our actions
    3) Allāh creates our act of choosing a instead of b.

    We cannot make a choice before Allāh creates the act of choosing. The creating comes first. but again, this isnt jabr since its not against our own will.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    this is different. I am not sure if you are confused or trying to confuse.

    ahlussunah's position is that Allah Ta'ala did not decide for Zaid that he will do action A or B;

    - He willed to create Zaid and created him
    - He willed that Zaid can do good or evil, and created that will in him
    - Zaid chooses with the created will to do good or evil
    - When Zaid made his choice with the created will Allah Ta'ala created his action.
    - Since He knew all this before creating Zaid, He had it written, and it cannot change because He is All-Knowing and Exalted from any shortcomings.
     
  12. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Jazākullāh khairan. enjoy your ramadān brothers. go hard in the worship for these last few days and nights.
     
    TruthWinner and AbdulMalik027 like this.
  13. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Alhumdulillāh. As long as we all agree every contingent is created/willed by Allāh, including our intentions/actions, we are good. This does not mean we don't have a will of our own (jabr) and that we are forced to do things against our will (with the exception of involuntary actions). we are only held accountable for our voluntary acts.
     
    TruthWinner and AbdulMalik027 like this.
  14. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    This was thoroughly addressed by Mawlana Abu Hasan and stated what is meant by Divine Will:

    https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/jabr-free-will-and-qadar.14837/


    "In conclusion:

    a) Our involuntary actions [iđţirāriyyah] are created by Allāh táālā; and every one agrees with this point [including adversaries].

    b) So also our voluntary actions [ikhtiyāriyyah] [are created by Allāh]; except that the slaves have in their voluntary actions, an inclination [mayl] and disposition [tawajjuh] [to do that action or not] and this is known as ‘acquisition’ [kasb] – and upon this rests [an individual’s] responsibility [taklīf].

    1. Allah ta'ala KNEW in Pre-Eternity what zayd would do (His Knowledge is not dependent on zayd coming into existence first)

    2. According to His Knowledge, He Willed in Pre-Eternity to create that action and that would come into existence: according to the choice of zayd.

    3. This is what we mean when we say: Divine Will of Allah."
     
    Ahlesaabiqoon and Noori like this.
  15. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    typo, I do not do takfīr. *
     
  16. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Brother dear, we do perform acts. we do choose between the good and bad. When we are thinking in our mind to either choose between this or that, this thinking in our head is created by Allāh. Focus on what the shaykh is saying, "We must also believe that what we will is created and willed by Him."

    So if we will to do something, Allāh willed for us that we would will to do something. This is precisely my position, which I have been explaining for a while. It is not jabr, since its not against our will. this is as simple as I can put it. Note I do I do takfīr if you deny this second degree of qadr. Im not accusing anyone of kufr. denying the first degree of qadr entails takfīr.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    you are not differentiating b/w choice and choosing, the act of choosing is indeed created by Allah Ta'ala, but He let us make our choice b/w good and bad.
     
  18. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Look at the highlighted part from the shaykh's comments. He says, "Aļļaah knows what we are to will in the future, yes, but that is not all. We must also believe that what we will is created and willed by Him."
     

    Attached Files:

    TruthWinner likes this.
  19. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    Notice the shaykh isnt just saying the ability to choose is created by Allāh. the act of choosing is also created by Him.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.
  20. Ahlesaabiqoon

    Ahlesaabiqoon Active Member

    focus on what I posted under.
     
    TruthWinner likes this.

Share This Page