Can God do this?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by rawatrwi, May 29, 2022.

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  1. rawatrwi

    rawatrwi New Member

    we mustn’t get overwhelmed with questions like this. our ulema have answered all such objections a long time ago.

    in short: the question is illogical and absurd since its contains a proposition which is nonsensical. therefore, the problem is not with God’s power but with the verbal nonsense contained in the question.

    it's like asking can God create a square-triangle, or make 1+1=3?

    1+1 = 3 is purely illogical. it has no meaning.
    a square triangle is the same. it is self contradictory.

    all these propositions are meaningless and nonsensical. the power of God doesn’t connect with such illogical things. if it did, then it would mean God can destroy himself or he can make himself powerless. however, these are all impossible and therefore can never happen.

    it's a play on words which atheists love to use to confuse people of Religion. we shouldn't panic but just break down the premise.

    secondly, the question contains a problematic assumption. it assumes that God has a body with which he can ‘climb walls.’ muslims do not believe God 'climbs' etc. movement entails occupying space, and God is free of space and time.

    Imām al-Ghazālī stated regarding the 5th fundamental in the knowledge of the essence of Allāh:

    (5) The fifth fundamental is the knowledge that He most high is not a body (jism) composed of substance [Its proof is this:] A body is composed of substances. But since it has been disproved that He was a substance limited by space, He cannot be a body, since every body is limited by space and is composed of substances, and since also it is impossible to dissociate substance from composition (ijtimāʾ) and decomposition (iftirāq), motion (ḥarakah) and rest (sukiūn), form (haiʾah) and quantity (miqdār), all of which are characteristics of the originated.
    — [al-Risāla al-Qudsiyya fī Qawāʿid al-ʿAqāʿid].

    if we were to reword the question in a way that doesn’t imply anthropomorphism, we could ask:

    'can God, who is All Powerful create a Wall so strong that even He can't destroy?’

    All Powerful means ‘capable of doing all rationally possible things.’

    destroying a wall is something that is rationally possible.

    therefore, the question is really asking ‘can god, the all-powerful make himself powerless?’ — the answer is no, because this would contradict God’s nature of being all powerful.

    if you wish to skip the jargon and technical discussion, respond to the person by asking 'can you look for a married bachelor?'

    that should be sufficient to prove the point.
     
  2. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    One way I always thought of it is that, since such a question is meaningless, it can't be answered anyway. It's like asking 'will the purple eat falling upwards?' or something i.e. it's a question but none of it makes sense and therefore, it cannot be answered with a yes or no.

    Asking the types of questions these philosophers/atheists bring up- they're meaningless when you analyse the actual question. Like a squared circle is just a meaningless phrase so if it's included in a question, does it have an answer? Not sure if the theologians would approve of an explanation such as mine but seems kind of similar to what has been mentioned before here.
     
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    It should be said that such propositions are absolute impossibilities due to their being logical absurdities, and therefore do not pertain to Allah's Omnipotence.

    The word "cannot" implies that the proposition is (or can be) possible logically but the one talked about is unable to do it, that is, lack of power, and is disrespectful to Allah.

    Furthermore, christians and devbandis will seize the opportunity to 'refute' you and will retort "see you're placing limits on God's power to lie or beget a son" (al 3eyadhu billah)
     
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  4. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    Is it permissible to use cannot for God? The way I learned it, when confronted with such questions, we use the word muhaal or impossible. For instance, if a Christian asked: is God able to have a son? The answer is neither yes nor no, rather we say it is impossible that God should have a son. Is saying cannot same as saying no?
     
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  5. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    First, definitions: Merriam Webster defines 'climb' as:

    Definition of climb
    (Entry 1 of 2)

    intransitive verb

    1a: to go upward with gradual or continuous progress : RISE, ASCEND watching the smoke climb
    b: to increase gradually; prices are continuing to climb
    c: to slope upward; a climbing path
    2a: to go upward or raise oneself especially by grasping or clutching with the hands; climbed aboard the train
    b; of a plant : to ascend in growth (as by twining) Ivy is climbing up the walls of the old building.
    3: to go about or down usually by grasping or holding with the hands; climb down the ladder
    4: to get into or out of clothing usually with some haste or effort; the firefighters climbed into their clothes

    transitive verb

    1: to go upward on or along, to the top of, or over; climb a hill
    2: to draw or pull oneself up, over, or to the top of by using hands and feet; children climbing the tree
    3: to grow up or over; ivy climbing the wall
    climb

    noun
    Definition of climb (Entry 2 of 2)

    1: a place where climbing is necessary to progress; steep climbs
    2: the act or an instance of climbing : RISE, ASCENT It's a 20-minute climb to the ridge from here.​

    Therefore, when used plainly [that is to say not as a metaphor], a thing that climbs is in space, time, and going in a direction.
    ---

    God is not a body.
    Climbing necessitates a body.

    So that's the first thing - the question itself has an issue.

    We do know. It is rationally impossible that God has a body, and thus we are forced to accept that climbing [literally speaking] can never be something that God does. God is free from time and space and thus free from moving and staying still in a direction.
    • Rationally impossible: that whose existence is inconceivable to the intellect. There are four kinds of these, three of which are:
      • Coincidence of opposites: like saying an object is moving and staying still at the same time.
      • Infinite regress: like saying A was caused by B which was caused by C ... infinitely.
      • Circularity: like saying A was caused by B which was caused by C which was caused by A.
    He Existed always, creation has a beginning.
    When there was no creation, God Existed Eternally. God does not change.

    We know that the Power (Qudrah) of God is connected to rationally possible things.
    • Rationally possible: that whose existence or non-existence is conceivable to the intellect; e.g. rain made of juice, purple grass, or a red ball.
    • Notice, purple grass or rain made of juice does not immediately imply a rational impossibility. Some of these might not occur in real life, but they are still possible.
    God's Existence is rationally necessary and therefore, His Power does not change His Entity - His Power brings into existence possible things. When those possible things are brought into existence, we say that they are created.
    • Rationally necessary: that whose non-existence is inconceivable to the intellect.
    One more thing: we can know things about the Power of Allah (such as that it is connected to rational possibilities and not impossibilities) even though we don't know the Reality of His Power. His Power is limitless and our intellects are limited.

    To summarize: God is free from time and space and thus 'climbing' is impossible to ascribe to Him. His Power is connected to possible things, and He is Eternal, not created.

    Note: intellect, conception, and other terms are discussed in more depth in the books of ʿaqīdah.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  6. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

    This question contain a great contradiction. It is not valid at all because the power of God has nothing to do with irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to perform a task He created?

    According to Islam, the attributes of God are three kinds:

    1. Positive Attribute i.e. Attributes that Allah essentially possess.
    2. Possible Attributes that Allah may possess or may not possess.
    3. Negative Attributes i.e. Attributes that Allah does not and cannot possess.

    The negative attributes are that God does not possess and cannot possess, like: non-existence, being created, being subject to perish, similarity with the created being, needing assistance from others, weakness, ignorance, death, being controlled, etc.

    Omnipotence does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Quran supports this in verses such as 4:40 which says it is "Surely Allah does not do injustice".

    Another common response is that since God is supposedly omnipotent, the phrase "unable to perform" does not make sense and the paradox is meaningless.

    When talking about omnipotence, referencing "a task God is unable to perform" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle"; that it is not logically coherent in terms of power to think that omnipotence includes the power to do the logically impossible. So asking "Can God create a task He is unable to perform?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?".

    The power of God - which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited - is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it. In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:

    Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase "creating a god" is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create "a god who is not a god"? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of God has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of God has nothing to do with irrationalities.

    It is not part of the power of God that He is able to create a task that He is unable to perform, because everything that God creates He is able to do, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of God to be connected to the creation of this supposed task does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather - on the contrary - it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can God be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of God is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that God cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.
     
  7. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

    This question contain a great contradiction. It is not valid at all because the power of God has nothing to do with irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to perform a task He created?

    According to Islam, the attributes of God are three kinds:

    1. Positive Attribute i.e. Attributes that Allah essentially possess.
    2. Possible Attributes that Allah may possess or may not possess.
    3. Negative Attributes i.e. Attributes that Allah does not and cannot possess.

    The negative attributes are that God does not possess and cannot possess, like: non-existence, being created, being subject to perish, similarity with the created being, needing assistance from others, weakness, ignorance, death, being controlled, etc.

    Omnipotence does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Quran supports this in verses such as 4:40 which says it is "Surely Allah does not do injustice".

    Another common response is that since God is supposedly omnipotent, the phrase "unable to perform" does not make sense and the paradox is meaningless.

    When talking about omnipotence, referencing "a task God is unable to perform" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle"; that it is not logically coherent in terms of power to think that omnipotence includes the power to do the logically impossible. So asking "Can God create a task He is unable to perform?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?".

    The power of God - which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited - is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it. In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:

    Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase "creating a god" is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create "a god who is not a god"? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of God has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of God has nothing to do with irrationalities.

    It is not part of the power of God that He is able to create a task that He is unable to perform, because everything that God creates He is able to do, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of God to be connected to the creation of this supposed task does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather - on the contrary - it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can God be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of God is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that God cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.
     
  8. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

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  9. Sirhindi

    Sirhindi New Member

    I'm 15 and my mosque teacher said in class: 'Can God create a wall so high that he can't climb?'. He then said that 'we don't know because we don't know the power of God'. I tried to look for the answer in Shaykh Asrar's book and found a similar question on page 157 about God lifting a boulder but the answer was too complicated and was hard for me to understand. Can someone clarify this for me please?
     

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