Dawah Man, Milad, bid'ah

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Ibn Rida Safdar, Nov 17, 2022.

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  1. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    I really like this sort of representation and methodical approach to newly invented matters as it's a lot more nuanced and structured than the usual response showing that the practice has a basis in the sunnah. But I also have some reservations and questions which can hopefully be answered by more knowledgeable brothers here.

    • The rating system seems a little tilted towards positive scoring. Amongst the 8 scores, there are only 3 possible negative scores as opposed to 6 possible positive scores.
    • How would this answer some prevalent Sufi practices involving specific acts (like Parcham Kushai) on specific days: 1st Muharram (Sherbet Fatiha & Parcham Kushai), 4th Muharram (donning green), - all of which are treated as ceremonial and ritual practices by the awaam who give prime importance to these?

    I feel that the crux of the issues related to Bidah (which have a root in the sunnah) is the idafi (extra) part. The opposition, whilst conceding that the newly invented practice is rooted in sunnah, will demand proof for its incremental/extra element. What exactly are those underlying factors which give credence to the incremental element:

    1) Is it based on rational evidence that the incremental part will aid the maqasid (eg. compilation of Qur'an in form of a book is necessary to protect and preach Din?)
    2) Is it based on Tajribi ilm of a Sufi (eg. a Sufi specifying time, place and frequency of a mustahab practice rooted in sunnah, as a litany to aid in a specific matter)
    3) Any others..

    Your rating system does attempt to incorporate the 1st point using your 6th and 7th query ratings so kudos on that but I am unsure if it has enough negative ratings to censure unnecessary incremental rituals to sunnah that are given undue importance by the awaam.

    The above underlying factors for giving credence to an incremental element will obviously also require further qawaid and dawabit. Whilst we do have a Shatibian framework for the 1st point, it'd be good to see the above being dealt from a Sunni/Shafii/Barelwi viewpoint that is more holistic in addressing the prevalent mamulat (and innovations) amongst the masses.

    (Disclaimer: I come here with the intention to share my questions and learn, and not to censure anyone's approach so please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood anything)
     
  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    You are a blind follower of uthaymeen, you yourself put an image for your avatar that explains this very well.
     
  3. basirqadri786

    basirqadri786 Banned

  4. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    In one of Najdi man's Facebook posts, he states (regarding Imam Asim):

    "Finally, notice how all the evidences and everything I brought has been ignored and he has made this into an emotional and personal issue, WAllahi this is exactly what pharaoh did to Musa 'AlayhisSalaam. Read the page yourself, it's proper proper sad, he is diverting and trying to side track exactly like the pharaoh did."

    Has Najdi man compared Prophet Musa (`alayhisalaam) to himself? If so, is the comment in bold considered blasphemy as per the Fifth Case from As-Shifa of Qadi Iyad (see page 204 of TKM)?
     
  5. The following are examples of acceptable and unacceptable innovations. They beautifully illustrate the correct understanding of Hadith on innovation:

    Part of a longer Hadith in Bukhari where the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon Him) disapproved:

    From Anas Bin Malik

    A group of three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) asking how the Prophet (ﷺ) worshipped (Allah), and when they were informed about that, they considered their worship insufficient and said, "Where are we from the Prophet (ﷺ) as his past and future sins have been forgiven." Then one of them said, "I will offer the prayer throughout the night forever." The other said, "I will fast throughout the year and will not break my fast."

    Narrated By Abu Huraira: At the time of the Fajr prayer the Prophet asked Bilal, "Tell me of the best deed you did after embracing Islam, for I heard your footsteps in front of me in Paradise." Bilal replied, "I did not do anything worth mentioning except that whenever I performed ablution during the day or night, I prayed after that ablution as much as was written for me."

    Bilal (May Allah be Pleased with Him) introduces a new act of worship with no prior precedent despite all the Hadith on innovations. It is sanctioned because it does not contravene The Sunnah or Quran and Bilal was not rebuked, neither was He told that "kull" means everything. The men mentioned in the first Hadith are contravening established Sunnah.

    Subhan Allah, we are on the understanding and way of Bilal
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
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  7. So the conclusion, what's your level of Quranic and classical Arabic- sanad, Ijaza and qualifications please otherwise sit down.
     
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    and this one too

    كَتَبَ عَلَىٰ نَفْسِهِ الرَّحْمَةَ
    6:12

    this is what happens when wahabi donkeys start to think they are wholesale dealers of faith.
     
  9. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    The best way to counter the wahhabi definition of "Kul" is from the Holy Qur'an itself:-

    كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ
    [A/I`mran 3:185] Every soul must taste death;

    Compare the above Aayah with the following, which uses the same word "Nafs", for the entity of Allah; and Ala Hazrat rightly translated the word "Nafs" as "His Punishment" (instead of His soul). But the word "Nafs" is the same.

    وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ ۗ
    [A/I`mran 3:30] and Allah warns you of His punishment;

    So if the same meaning was to be applied to the word "Nafs" - and the word Kull was to be applied to ALL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, then as per Wahhabi logic, Allah would also have to taste death.

    La Hawla Wa Laa Quwwata Illaa Bi-Allah.

     
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  10. @Paradise Seeker

    I was thinking about this Hadith actually the other day and these people can't have their cake and eat it. Its simple, if they are adamant that "Kull" means everything then they run into huge problems when using the same literal approach for the said Hadith in Tirmidhi because only Allah has knowledge of everything. Look at the words فتجَلَّى لِي كُلُّ شَيْءٍ وَعَرَفْتُ

    Here "Kullu Shayin" mentioned in the Hadith of Tirmidhi which you posted cannot mean everything literally but a great deal or huge amount. If they accept that "Kull" means a lot or huge amount or much here then they also have to accept that the same word used in the Hadith for innovation means most BUT NOT LITERALLY EVERY WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
     
  11. Paradise Seeker

    Paradise Seeker Active Member


    Ibn ‘Abbas (May Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said.
    I saw my Lord in the most beautiful form [in a dream]. He asked me, ‘O Muhammad! Do you know what the exalted angels argue over?’ I replied ‘I do not know’. Hence He placed his hand between my shoulders and I felt coolness in my chest. Hence [as a result] everything became apparent to me and I knew everything…” (Imam Tirmidhi in Sunan al-Tirmidhi. Hadīth no. 3158. Chapter; the Tafseer of the Qur’ān. Book; from Surah Swadh).

    The word kull is used in the above hadith but the najdis have a problem with the knowledge of Prophet peace be upon him, they not believe Prophet peace be upon him knew everything in the heavens and earth... here they make specifics and make 101 excuses but when it comes to the hadith about Kullu bid-'atin dalalah they state EVERY innovation - picking and choosing when it suits their desires
     
  12. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    Dawah man can bark as much as he likes but there is nothing that is going to stop the celebration of Milad which grows every year across the world. Its time wasting arguing with him when he seems to be unable to comprehend the actual argument he is making.
     
  13. Yes but the "Way" even if it is used in general terms can be explained by Qur'an as well as Sunnah. So we are talking of a Praiseworthy action but to prove it we need Quran and Sunnah, or One or the Other. We are not talking just about the classification of an action but its Source also.
     
  14. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    إِنَّ الصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةَ مِن شَعَائِرِ اللَّهِ ۖ فَمَنْ حَجَّ الْبَيْتَ أَوِ اعْتَمَرَ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِ أَن يَطَّوَّفَ بِهِمَا ۚ وَمَن تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ شَاكِرٌ عَلِيمٌ

    Undoubtedly Safa and Marwah are among the symbols of Allah; so there is no sin on him, for whoever performs the Hajj (pilgrimage) of this House (of Allah) or the Umrah (lesser pilgrimage), to go back and forth between them; and whoever does good of his own accord, then (know that) indeed Allah is Most Appreciative (rewards virtue), the All Knowing. (Surah alBaqarah 2:158)
     
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i realised afterward, why i did not include it in the first place.

    here we talk of sunnah as in 'way' and 'practice'. sunnah as opposed to bid'ah.
    not just sunnah as in hadith, as in kitab and sunnah.

    wAllahu a'alam.

    tahdhibnawawi,3-156.jpg

    for those of us who don't read arabic:
    the above is from imam nawawi's tahdhib al-asma'a wa'l sifat. he says:

    sunan - pl. of sunnah: sunnah [by default] means the practice, tradition [sunnah] of the Prophet ﷺ - originally, it means the 'way'; at times, 'sunnah' is used to refer to the narrations of hadith of RasulAllah ﷺ. sometimes, 'sunnah' is used to describe praiseworthy, voluntary, supererogatory actions.

    he further explains that all these terms are synonymous: sunnah, mandub, tatawwu', nafl, muraghghab fihi, mustaHabb. meaning praiseworthy voluntary actions. meaning it is recommended and desirable to do such actions, than omit them - and if one omits such actions, he/she has not committed a sin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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  16. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    May Allah subhanu wa ta'ala reward you with the company of His beloved alaihi afDalus salat wat'tasleem in jannah. Masha Allah. As a brother prayed earlier May Allah subhanu wa ta'la increase among us like abu Hasan.
     
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  17. Before the below System from Abu Hasan I think we should explain clearly the correct linguistic definition of the word "kull" and its correct understanding by the LEGAL authorities like Haithami etc. an analogy of the answer to prove this is also important from other examples. One is the use of the number 70,000 in many Hadith (literally 70,000 or great many?), the other example is Allah Most High's creation of the universe in 6 days ( Ibn Abbas, Mujahid etc point to this being stages or one day equivalent to a thousand years).

    The whole debate with these literalist khawarij rests on the one word "Kull" and if you tackle this issue concisely FIRST then you have a better chance of them treating the below points system with its due respect.
     
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  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yes, that is good one. jazakAllahu khayran.
     
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  19. Point 2, "has basis in Quran, Sunnah or both"
     
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    template.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
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