Is this couplet polytheistic?

Discussion in 'Poetry' started by Aqdas, Mar 20, 2023.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Yes, Mufti e Azam.
     
  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Huzur Mufti e Azam forbade using it for Allah Ta'ala, it read it in Jahan e Mufti e Azam somehwere.
     
  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    At 11 mins, the Mawlana sahib says Allah ne istiymal farmaye.

    I believe one of the akabir said this shouldn't be said about Allah ta'ala because istiymal is from amal and Allah ta'ala is free from amal.
     
    Noori likes this.
  4. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

  5. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Asalam alaikum

    We see this alot in modern times with those who practice Qawallī
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is kufr.

    al-iyadhu billah.

    someone tell these idiots that we are muslims; we are not hindus or christians who have no restriction on how they describe what they worship.

    a Muslims should be careful and withhold his tongue when speaking of Allah taala or His Messengers - and speak only as much as the shariah permits us. if you do not know what are the limits, then first find out.

    read a beginner book on aqidah/creed. and what makes you a muslim and what makes you a kafir.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2022
    Umar99 and Ali_Bash like this.
  7. Ahmadh

    Ahmadh New Member

    On a similar topic, what can be said about this line from 3:52 ()

    "the pain of separation was intolerable even for God"
     
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Then he should clarify.
     
  9. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    There are other issues too, he was invited to a wahabi jalsah and he said there were no major issues with them, the differences are of secondary nature.
     
  10. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Btw, I think he retracted after the discussion with Mufti Rashid Mahmood Rizwi.

    That was at the start, before Irfan Shah went extreme and did takfir. Meaning, perhaps Saeed Asad sahib just thought Jalali sahib shouldn't have said khata.
     
  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I did not say that the asha'ar are problematic al iy'adhu billah, I just said (or meant to say) that tafziliyyah can present these or similar asha'ar from our elders, for example, the 6th shai'r in the image "na mangon main tum say to phir kis say mangon". I don't see any problem with it but I can see that tafziliyyah will try to use such asha'ar to justify their mushrikanah shai'r.
     
  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Masha'a Allah, very nice as always, and I do stand corrected, but I do think that takfir will not be made because I know that the tafziliyyah will make ta'wilaat and try to use couplets from elders' kalam to justify it.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    except when such a verse would be said by an upright scholar, and known to be a staunch sunni, and his other work clearly absolves him of tashayyuy or rifz or having used it in an absolute sense.

    in such a case, it will be considered a lapse on the part of the poet [shat'Haat of awliyaa], or that it was said in a state of being engrossed - as we come across certain problematic words in the speech of sufis; or that he had something else in mind, which was not adequately conveyed in words. we can do ta'wil to avoid takfir.

    however, it cannot be repeated. it cannot be read out in public. especially in these times of closet shia/tafzili/rawafiz showing their true colours.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
    Noori likes this.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    malik e kaunayn hain go paas kuch rakhte nahin
    do jahan ki niymaten hain unke khaali haath mein

    he is the master of both worlds, though he doesn't keep anything with him
    the gifts of both worlds are present in his empty hand [or "just" his palm]

    khaali is used cleverly as both: 'empty hand' and the idiom: in "just" his palm.
    'empty' because he would give away everything.

    sahih bukhari: #6998:

    bukhari n6998.png


    tirmidhi, #2369

    tirmidhi, n2369.png


    ---
    ghaus e kaunayn ki ghulami se
    jagat aaqa hai ahmad e noori


    ghaus e kaunayn is RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam;
    and by becoming his slave, ahmad noori has become the master of this world.

    jagat= dunya (in hindi); meaning master of people in this world (i.e. after him).

    kaunayn is also used in urdu to mean: men and jinn - so it can also be used to indicate 'relative'; but when you couple this with rizq and without any other indication of being relative, it simply gives the meaning of absolute - as we see in the shiyr.

    ----
    zinat e ka'abah mein tha laakh aruson ka banaaw
    jalwah farma yahan kaunayn ka dulha dekho


    in the bedecked ka'abah was the adorment of a million brides
    come see the resplendence here of the presence of the prince of both worlds

    [i.e. near the mausoleum of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam]


    -----
    la wa rabbi'l arsh jis ko jo mila in se mila
    bat'ti hai kaunayn mein niymat RasulAllah ki sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam


    by Allah, the Owner of the Throne - anyone who gets, get its by his means
    the blessing of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is shared in both worlds.

    in se mila - via him, through him, by his means.

    ----
    sayyid e kaunayn sultan e jahan
    zill e yazdan shah e deen arsh aastan

    the chief of both worlds - the king of the world
    the shade given by Allah (for the creation) - the master of the religion, the one who has been on the Throne.

    even taymiyyites should not crib because according to them RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam will be on the arsh on Judgement Day.

    ----
    hay khaak sey ta'amir mazar e shah e kaunayn
    ma'mur isi khaak se qiblah hai hamara


    the blessed tomb of the prince of both worlds is made from this dust [of the earth]
    and our qiblah - the direction we turn to worship our Lord - the ka'aba is also made from this very earth.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
    Umar99 and Noori like this.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in mufti-azam's lines there is no indication of absoluteness.

    tere rab ne malik kia tere jadd ko
    tere ghar se dunya pali ghaws e aazam


    your Lord-Almighty made your grandfather (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) the owner, the master of everything
    the world lives at the door of your household - o ghaws

    dunya - as opposed to kaunayn - refers to people in this world. and we use this as a common idiom - if there is a throng of people at a place, we say: "ek dunya palat aayi hai."

    when it was a public event: "saari dunya ne dekha", the whole world has seen this.

    some ulama are given the title: "allamatu'd dunya" - the greatest scholar in the world. even though greater than them might have come before. [imam abu hafS nasafi al-hanafi is one example who is given this title].

    thus "dunya" is used for people for one's age and thereafter.

    imam ibn Hajar al-asqalani terms imam bukhari as: "imam al-dunya fi fiqh'il hadith" - the imam of the world in the understanding of hadith.

    for contrast, if we replace dunya with kaunayn, we can see that the relative meaning becomes absolute:

    how does "imam al-kaunayn fi fiqhi'l hadith" sound?

    ---------
    woh hai kaun aysa nahin jis ne paaya
    tere dar pe dunya dhali ghaws e aazam


    who among the people of this world who didn't avail
    the world turns to your doorstep o ghaws aazam

    the same idiom - people of the world.

    a famous man: 'aaj dunya mein use kaun nahin jaanta' / who doesn't know him in the world?

    if someone argues about iphones and that they are useless, one could say: "dunya istimaal karti hai" / the world uses it.

    or about windows: "aaj dunya meN kaun windows istimaal nahin karta" / who doesn't use windows in today's world.

    clearly the ma'ana of istighraq is not present in this usage.

    ---
    remaining lines must be understood in this context and relative meaning. not as absolute and all-encompassing.
    ------
    Allah knows best.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
    Noori and AbdalQadir like this.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that seems to be true. he is swaying from here to there and back again - attacking the aqidah of awwaliyah and when irfan shah created this controversy, he sat with him. and then swung back again to the other end.

    but in this matter, i seem to agree with him - the lines are offensive and should be avoided.
    saeed sahib describes it as "mushrikana" meaning - suggestive of shirk; and takfir was not made [at least in this clip]. yes, with a ta'wil takfir can be avoided, but the sheyr should be shunned at all costs. it is indeed "suggestive of shirk"

    ruk jaye agar maadar e hasanayn ki chakki
    kaunayn ko phir rizq ata kaun karega


    if the millstone of hasan-husayn's mother stops grinding
    who will then give sustenance to both the worlds?

    in other words: it is sayyidah's millstone that gives sustenance to both worlds.
    taking out the metaphor and saying it plainly: sayyidah gives sustenance to both worlds. [al iyadhu billah]

    by negating others [using an interrogative sentence - istifham li'l inkar], the sentence gives a meaning of 'absolute'.
    and by saying kaunayn - both the worlds - it indicates 'istighraq' meaning, applies to everything.
    and here 'ata' - to give is also suggestive of 'giving' and not 'means of giving' [tawassul].

    by implication, this includes anbiya alayhimu's salatu wa's salam - and sayyidu'l awwalin wa'l aakhirin, our master sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam himself.
    -----

    alahazrat's verses however make this distinction and makes our aqidah crystal clear:

    rabb hai mu'yti - yeh hain qasim
    rizq us ka hai, khilate yeh hain


    Allah is the real Giver, he (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) is the distributor
    sustenance (rizq) belongs Allah - but our master feeds us (from the rizq given by Allah).

    khalq ke hakim ho tum, rizq ke qasim ho tum
    tum se mila jo mila, tum pe karoron durud

    you are the master, the overlord, the ruler of the creation; you distribute sustenance
    whatever we get is through you - a million blessings upon you

    here "tum-se-mila" - due to the previous allusion to "taqsim"/distribution, clearly implies "through you" - not that you are actual giver.

    ----
    rizq e khuda khaya kiya, farman e Haqq taala kia
    shukr e karam, tars e sazaa - ye bhi nahin woh bhi nahin


    you live on the sustenance given by Allah - yet you overlook and disobey His commands.
    gratitude for the Grace and bounty? fear of punishment? you have neither this, nor that.

    -----

    in another manqabat ala hazrat clarifies this even further:

    khuda se leN laD'ai woh hai mu'Tiy
    nabi qasim hai tu muuSil موصِل ya ghawth

    they seek to fight with Allah? He is the Giver
    the Prophet distibutor and you deliver - o ghawth [shaykh abdu'l qadir jilani]

    the next couplet answers any objection

    aTa'en Muqtadir, Ghaffar ki haiN
    abas bandon ke dil mein ghil hai ya ghaws


    every boon, every grant, in reality, is actually given by the All-Powerful, the Forgiver
    people harbor a grudge needlessly, o ghawth!

    ---
    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2022
    Umar99, Ghulam Ali, Noori and 3 others like this.
  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Which line/couplet (of the pasted part) is problematic? I can't see a single asha'ar that can be objected to.

    Which verse by Mawlana Mustafa Raza is even parallel to the detestable rafizi verse/statement cited by Aqdas?
     
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    After discussing it with my teacher and pondering more on it I take my statement back, but still, a far-fetched interpretation can be made which will hold us from takfir, not like what saeed asad sahib said that it is absolutely and certainly kufr and shirk. if saeed asad sahib tahinks so then he should do takfir of iran shah and everybody sitting there and agreeing to this absolutely and certainly kufr and shirk.
     
  19. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I think this can be favorably interpreted, Saeed Asad sahib is no more a reliable critic.

    see the couplets by Huzur Molana Mustafa Raza Khan rahimahullah, the same objection can be made on these asha'ar (of course, which we will reject and do favorable sharh), and these are in praise of ibn Sayyidatin' Nisaa raDiyaAllahu Anha.

    Snap 2022-12-14 at 14.42.49.png
     
  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

Share This Page