Ibn Taymiyyah on hellfire

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Khanah, May 8, 2023.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    of course, similar to devbandis, taymiyyites and wahabis will even go to the extent of faulting the sahabah or elder scholars, just to prove their tawaghit right. and they accuse us for "blind following"...

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
     
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  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I been meaning to post this one for months - thanks for posting.

    in fact, if I remember correctly, he doesn't say that it's not kufr - he dismisses it under a convenient maxim of "if you are a big enough scholar, your heresies get a free pass".

    He minces no words - they did hold on to that belief until the end (i.e. he doesn't find any indication that they repented from it) and yet no one did takfir - because, well he is shaykh-ul-Islam!

    so as per him, there is this "shia like" concept of 'ismah - albiet it's evidently more egalitarian, in as much as it's not limited to sayyids, but includes all big scholars - those right up there among the stars.
     
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  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as for calling ibn taymiyyah shaykhu'l islam or praying for him or mentioning raHimahullah after his name, many sunni scholars have done that in spite of not agreeing with any of his deviant positions. perhaps it is because of his tawbah or whatever.

    inasmuch praying for him: "may Allah have mercy on him", it is not an issue if you say this for any muslim and we do not do takfir of ibn taymiyyah. but we do not add it as a honorific after his name, lest the layman mistakes this as respect and admiration.

    many ulama - such as shaykh muhammad ibn alawi etc have even said: "shaykh muhammad ibn abdul wahab" and added the prayer; everyone knows that they did so to not offend the those in authority. this too, was not in greed of personal gain, but that was the only way they could teach, preach and publish books in makkah.

    i have learned to ignore this issue as it is very common among arab authors, staunch sunnis among them.
    ---
    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
     
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  4. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Considering the position outlined by YQ, Hijab, etc, in these videos, my questions for those who willingly invite them onto their podcasts or promote them in some way:

    1. Zayd believes the hellfire will come to an end and does not last forever. What is the ruling on Zayd?

    2. Amr attributes the belief of hellfire coming to an end to Zayd (whether rightly or wrongly). Despite this, Amr believes Zayd is shaykh ul Islam and prays for mercy upon Zayd's soul after mentioning his name. Not only that, Amr continues to believe Zayd is a sunni. What is the ruling on Amr?
     
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  5. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran



    At minute 27:45, Hijab states ibn taymiyyah and ibn qayyim held the position of the extinguishing of the hellfire. Yet it's clear he holds both of them in high regard, as Muslim scholars and in fact, within Ahlus Sunnah- clearly, he doesn't see that holding the belief of the annihilation of the hellfire is a kufr position.

    Hope this wakes up those who have recently become enamoured with him just because he praises some ashari scholars, and those who have tried to deny his salafism (as has become common amongst some sunnis).
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    That's true on some/many matters, and ibn baz certainly was a dirty dog, but I doubt on this specific topic this is the case.

    These madkhali shayateen are now going against the fatawa of their own elders and editing their own books and works, in order to eventually normalize relations with Israel and join the dajjal.

    Previously they used to tamper books of Imam Nawawi and Ali Al-Qari to fit their wahabi beliefs. Now they're tampering their own books to please their masters. Don't be surprised if kitabı al-tawhid of 2025 print will have copious footnotes on how it's mustahab in our times to celebrate christmas, halloween and valentine's day (their current official position).

    Just about every fatwa of ibn baz from car insurance to celebrating christmas has been turned on its head, and i would be surprised if they actually didn't doctor his views on this topic.

    Wait another 5 yrs and the official najdi position will be that christians and yahood will enter jannah and that we need to consult a mufti before calling them kuffar, just like mark hanson says. Barelwis will of course remain qubooriyyeen and ahlul hawa!

    We're either in or very close to the times the Prophet 3alaihis salam said there will be two camps of iman and nifaq, one will have iman and no kufr, the other will be full of kufr and no iman (not directly quoting).
     
  7. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    http://www.binbaz.org.sa/mat/10380

    Here is ibn baz claiming this opinion is weak and held by only a minority of sunnis. Rather than explain it for the kufr that it is.

    It's ironic that they don't hesitate to make takfeer of Muslims but when ibn taymiyyah or ibn qayyim are mentioned, they'll defend their words even if they deny the necessary elements of the religion.
     
  8. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran



    Hatim Al haaj on blogging theology- see 2 hrs 20 mins onwards, roughly. He essentially claims that ibn taymiyyah was non committal regarding this position. However, if you listen to the end of that segment, it becomes clear that Hatim himself believes you can remain a Muslim despite believing this foolishness.

    The reason why this is a major issue is because, as mentioned before, removing basic doctrines from the religion is exactly how Christianity was essentially destroyed in modern times. These ibn taymiyyah fan boys are trying to do the same thing. For all those who think there is no major problem with the wahabbis and we should join hands with them etc etc (as some of the public certainly believes), this should be a wake up call. These people are trying to remove certainty regarding a doctrine that even 5 year olds are aware of.

    And rather than relegate this to books that no one will read, they'll openly promote this on videos with hundreds of thousands of viewers, thus destroying the imaan of many. No doubt we are living in dangerous times.

    It certainly re-emphasises the need to learn the basic doctrinal tenets of Islam in a formal manner so that people casually browsing tik tok can't be duped by these charlatans.
     
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  9. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran



    See this full twitter thread where it is claimed Albani knew of ibn taymiyyah's belief and yet continued to call him shaykh ul Islam, despite attributing kufr to him.
     
  10. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran



    Here we have another famous salafi stating that ibn qayyim held this belief. Rather than refute it, he says they honour these scholars and tries to downplay the mistake.

    The big fitnah with these people is the same thing that happened to the deobandis- their founders committed kufr and when they find out about it, rather than disowning them, they try to justify it due to their cult like mentality, thereby committing kufr themselves.

    I think most of these guys probably never knew ibn taymiyyah etc held this opinion and it's becoming more widespread these days, hence the surprise that many of them feel when they encounter it but I could be wrong.

    I wonder whether bin baz and these guys ever commented on it.
     
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  11. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Asalam Alaikum

    I get that my brother, i am just baffled as to why they would claim it,
    I decided to abit of digging and he referenced it being in the Muʿjam al-Kabir of Imām al-Ṭabarānī 9:295 §7969, the editor in the footnote quoted Imām al-Haythami in Majma saying one of its narrator is weak by the name of Jaʿfar bin Zubair, Ibn Ḥajar in al-Taqrib describes him as discarded in ḥadīth although he is good in of himself, also ʿAbdullāh bin Misʿar who narrates from him is also considered discarded (matrūk) by Abū Ḥātim al-Razī, and Imām Dhahabī considered this narration Batil (Mizan al-Iʿtidāl 4:198) Please correct me if i have a mistake and Allāh knows best.
     
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    bro, you must learn the art of fanciful interpolation, extrapolation, and verbal gymnastics alongside distorted translations.

    once you learn that, you can easily claim that Abu Hanifa and Shafi3i held the belief that gandhi will enter jannah along with his favorite cow, or anything else you want.
     
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  13. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Is he claiming Hadhrat ʿAbdullāh bin ʿAbbās رضي الله عنه and other companions have same belief of Hell like Ibn Taymiyyah and his ilk?
     
  14. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    The following is an excerpt from Hamza Yusuf's essay appended to the Study Quran. Notice how he indicates that Hell fire perishing is actually a minority but valid position in sunni Islam. His final paragraph clearly indicates that he supports this position.

    During the early period of Islam, scholars differed about the duration of Hell. The majority of them argued that Hell is perpetual and an actualized state that never ends. But some groups argued otherwise, citing verses that hinted at an end to Hell’s torment and arguing that this was more consistent with God’s saying, “My Mercy exceeds My Wrath.”⁶⁶ Thus the scholars fell into three camps. The first believed that although Hell did not end, its punishments and torments did. Their proof for this was the verse: Truly Hell lies in ambush, a place unto which the rebellious return, to tarry therein for ages (78:21–23). This was the opinion of Aḥmad ibn Taymiyyah (d. 7281328), Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah (d. 751/1350), and Ibn ʿArabī; a similar opinion that the majority of Hell’s denizens are ultimately released also appears to have been held by al-Ghazzālī, as is evident in his Fayṣal altafriqah (Decisive Criterion). The second camp comprised the annihilationists, who argued that Hell is extinguished entirely. Finally, the last group comprised the majority of scholars, who adhered to the notion of perpetual punishment understood literally.

    Ibn ʿAbbās and others among the first community and Companions of the Prophet, however, relate statements that, nonetheless, indicate the vast Mercy of God in the Afterlife, such as, “Surely a day will come over Hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while.”⁶⁷ Stronger still is the following sound ḥadīth, “Then God will say, ‘The angels, the prophets, and the faithful have all in their turn interceded for the sinners, and now there remains none to intercede for them except the most Merciful of those who show mercy.’ So, God will then remove a handful of people from the Fire who never worked any good.”⁶⁸

    The Quran also states: As for those who are wretched, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them groaning and wailing, abiding therein for so long as the heavens and the earth endure, save as thy Lord wills. Surely thy Lord does whatsoever He desires (11:106–7). The following verse then describes Paradise: And as for those who are felicitous, they shall be in the Garden, abiding therein for so long as the heavens and the earth endure, save as thy Lord wills—a gift unfailing (11:108).

     
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  15. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    https://eshaykh.com/doctrine/the-torment-of-hell-coming-to-an-end/

    Apparently an answer from Gibril Haddad on this issue. The video in the OP actually refutes that any Sahaba held this position as the statements should be interpreted as meaning the punishment comes to an end for the believers only (as they are removed from the fire).
     
  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    as sh. Asrar often says in his popular end-times lecture series: we are in the period known in Islamic eschatology as "ad-duhaymah" - wherein, a Muslim is only one social media post away from kufr!

    he reads a tweet on his smartphone, lying on a sofa (enjoying a pastry perhaps) and believes in it and crosses into kufr without any apparent sign - while his eternal life has just been destroyed - all due to his ignorance and making light of religious matters.

    nas' al Allahu ta'ala 'aafiyah
     
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  17. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Here Israr Ahmed says that he disagrees with the kufri position of iqbal although he justifies it in some way and says its not the position of sunni Islam. Whereas he should have said its not the position of Islam at all:



    Here he is attributing the position of hellfire coming to an end to ibn taymiyyah and ibn arabi as if its a valid position:



    I'm not saying they held those views and that it's not a misattribution by the way.

    1. It's sad that people with such high followings are promoting this kufri position.

    2. They don't outright say they subscribe to it except in the case of zakir and shabir. They say 'ibn taymiyyah believed it, I don't agree with him', thereby attempting to legitimise the position as a minority opinion, which is kufr in itself.

    3. Attacks on the doctrines necessarily known within the religion is one of the main reasons why Judaism and Christianity have fallen apart. For example, religious Jews have wide ranging opinions on whether there is such a thing as heaven and hell on the first place, with some believing in annihilation. Christians have wide ranging views on something as fundamental as the inerrancy of their own religious text. Once the doctrinal boundaries of religion x are removed, there is nothing to distinguish religion x from religion y. We must safeguard knowledge of the doctrines necessarily known in the religion because the public is being duped by the likes of yasir, zakir, etc. Teaching correct basic aqeedah is paramount.

    4. Yasir and israr and others have gone astray by behaving with a cult mentality with regard to ibn taymiyyah etc. It's the same with the deos. When they see some famous personality x claim kufr position y, they should disassociate from x rather than promote y! Same thing with the hamza fan boys. Rather than justify this nonsense, they should have recognised it for what it was and not promoted it.
     
  18. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Here is shabir ally, a famous apologist, saying that the view hellfire will end is a minority view and thus acceptable:



    These guys such as yasir, zakir etc have had millions of people view videos on this specific topic between them - think of the confusion they have caused. How many people will have walked away believing its acceptable to hold this opinion now? And have the English speaking ulema done enough to rebut them? It shouldn't be something that needs to be answered because it's so clear cut but look at the reach and following they have.
     
  19. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Amendment- not sure if ibn hazm said the same thing or if he said something similar about taking a son if He Wants (I seek refuge in Allah).

    If someone could clarify the level of kufr that this reaches (as per my previous post), I would be grateful.
     
  20. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I thought that:

    1. The kufr of saying Allah can become human if He Wills is at the same level of the deobandi kufr of saying lying is within the Divine Power i.e. doesn't take you out of Islam. Thus takfeer isn't made of Ibn Hazm who said the same thing as Zakir.

    2. The kufr of saying heaven and hell will end takes you out of Islam due to being a rejection of the necessities of religion.
     

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