A hadith proves the mubtadiyeen wrong

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by faqir, Mar 30, 2007.

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  1. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    The Almighty says in Surat al-Jinn, “He is Knower of the Unseen, and does not divulge His Unseen to anyone – except a Messenger with whom He is well pleased.” (72:26-27)

    Al Qurtubi said in the tafsir of the ayat, “Allah acquaints His Messengers with what He wishes of His Unseen because the Messengers are supported by miracles, some of which include being acquainted with some unseen matters. They included ‘Isa, peace be upon him, whom Allah acquainted with some unseen matters by means of revelation as the Almighty says, ‘I will tell you what you eat and what you store up in your homes.’ (3:49)”
  2. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    wherever you copied this from - you did not do a good job almost all the links did not get copied properly.

    copy it nicely from the amwat boards next time.


    { one can use this website : www.tinyurl.com to make large cryptic urls tiny }

  3. abubakr

    abubakr Guest

    Sahih Muslim


    Book 024, Number 5246:

    A'isha reported that Gabriel (peace be upon him) made a promise with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to come at a definite hour; that hour came but he did not visit him. And there was in his hand (in the hand of Allah's Apostle) a staff. He threw it from his hand and said: Never has Allah or His messengers (angels) ever broken their promise. Then he cast a glance (and by chance) found a puppy under his cot and said: 'A'isha, when did this dog enter here? She said: BY Allah, I don't know He then commanded and it was turned out. Then Gabriel came and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: You promised me and I waited for you. but you did not come, whereupon he said: It was the dog in your house which prevented me (to come), for we (angels) do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture.

    If nabi has knwoledge of everything and he was hadhir nahdir then why did he ask aisha how long the dog had been in the house and why was he so anxious and upset about hadhrat jibril not coming.

    There is also in Saheeh Bukhari a hadith in chaper of Prayer, hadith n 401

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet prayed (and the subnarrator Ibrahim said, "I do not know whether he prayed more or less than usual"), and when he had finished the prayers he was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Has there been any change in the prayers?" He said, "What is it?' The people said, "You have prayed so much and so much." So the Prophet bent his legs, faced the Qibla and performed two prostrations (of Sahu) and finished his prayers with Tasiim (by turning his face to right and left saying: 'As-Salamu'Alaikum-Warahmat-ullah'). When he turned his face to us he said, "If there had been anything changed in the prayer, surely I would have informed you but I am a human being like you and liable to forget like you. So if I forget remind me and if anyone of you is doubtful about his prayer, he should follow what he thinks to be correct and complete his prayer accordingly and finish it and do two prostrations (of Sahu)."

    Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his fath al-bari commented on the prophet words : "What is it?" and said : " And in this ( word) there is signification that there was no perception for him ( Prophet saw) about what he added ( in rak'a), and there is daleel in it about permissiblity of happening of Sahw ( forgetfullness) to Prophets in actions, Ibn Daqiq AL Idd : this is the saying of all scholars, and a group did shuzuz ( sepration from all scholars) and said that Sahw is not permissible for Prophets, and this hadeeth is a refutation of them, because of his saying : " liable to forget like you" and his saying : "So if I forget remind me" menaing with Tasbeeh and similar."

    So if nabi can forget as shown in this hadith then it refutes the concept that he has knwoledge of all things. If he knew what was going to happne then he wouldnt have made the forgetful mistake in prayer.

    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 618:

    Narrated Sahl bin Saud As-Sa'idi:

    When the helmet broke on the head of the Prophet and his face became covered with blood and his incisor tooth broke (i.e. during the battle of Uhud), 'Ali used to bring water in his shield while Fatima was washing the blood off his face. When Fatima saw that the bleeding increased because of the water, she took a mat (of palm leaves), burnt it, and stuck it (the burnt ashes) on the wound of Allah's Apostle, whereupon the bleeding stopped.

    This hadiht once again refutes the concept of nabi having knowledge of all thigns and being hadhir and nadhir. if he was then why would he get injured in the battle of uhud. if he knew what was going to happne surely he would have avoided gettin hurt.

    If nabi saw has full knowledge of creation thne what about the following hadith:

    Saheeh Muslim Kitab Fadahil Nabi saw


    Musa b. Talha reported: I and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) happened to pass by people near the date-palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What are these people doing? They said: They are grafting, i. e. they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practice. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), whereupon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for it was just a personal opinion of mine, and do not go after my personal opinion; but when I say to you anything on behalf of Allah, then do accept it, for I do not attribute lie to Allah, the Exalted and Glorious.

    Rafi' b. Khadij reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said: What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being. 'Ikrima reported that he said something like this.

    Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) happened to pass by the people who had been busy in grafting the trees. Thereupon he said: If you were not to do it, it might be good for you. (So they abandoned this practice) and there was a decline in the yield. He (the Holy Prophet) happened to pass by them (and said): What has gone wrong with your trees? They said: You said so and so. Thereupon he said: You have better knowledge (of a technical skill) in the affairs of the world.
  4. abubakr

    abubakr Guest

    Here is an ayat from the Quran:

    “And among the bedouins round about you, some are hypocrites, and so are some among the people of Al-Madinah, they exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy, you (O Muhammad ) know them not, We know them. We shall punish them twice, and thereafter they shall be brought back to a great (horrible) torment”. (101 : 9)

    Lets look at the authentic tafsirs:

    Imam Tabari says “ He says to his Prophet saw : You don’t know O Muhammad these Munafiq that I describe you from around from A’rab and from Medinah, but We know them”


    Imam Suyuti says : “ You don’t know them, by their wrong actions, or qatl fi duniya or A‘zab fil Qabr”


    Imam Qurtubi said : “ It has been said “ You do not know Muhammad saw the end of their
    actions, and We are Khas with this knowledge, and this forbid that we can make a judgement of Jannat and Nar on anyone of them”


    Lets look at the following ayat of the quran and its tafsir.

    “Say (O Muhammad saw):"I am not a new thing among the Messengers (of Allah) (i.e. I am not the first Messenger) nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner." ( 9 : 46)

    Imam Tabari said that this was first then Allah informed him, but before he didn’t know whether he will be killed as some other prophet, or whether he will be followed by a lot of people.

    So it denies knowledge before Wahy(revelation)

    Imam Suyuti says “ I don’t know what will de done with me in duniya, I will go out of my city or I will be killed as was done to Prophets before, or you will throw me stones…”


    Imam Qurtubi says “ From Al Haasan : I don’t know what will be done to me fi duniya. And Ab Ja’far says that this is the most sahih qawl and the best, Prophet saw does not know what will come to him and them as sickness and good health,…wealth or poverty, this is as the Ayat “ If I knew the Ghayb, the good will multiply and evil would not touch me” A’raf 188…”


    “ You knew not what is the book nor what is Iman” Shura : 52

    Imam Qurtubi says Nabi Saw did not know the tafseel of Iman, Faraidh and other laws, while bralwi say he knew all things, ma kana ma yakunu

    Imam Suyuti says : “ What is Iman meaning its laws and Ma’alim”, while bralwi say, ma kana ma yakunu was given since beginning to the Prophet saw


    Imam Tabari say “ You didn’t know anything from Iman Kitab, neither Iman, that we gave both to you”

    Imam Ibn Katheer says that Nabi saw didn’t know according to the tafseel we gave him

    Look at how these ayats of the quran and the authentic tafsirs contradict the barelvi beleif. The true ahle sunnah wal jamah belief is that Allah tala informs nabi of certain thigns of the unseen through revelation and inspiration. The barelvi beleif is that nabi saw has knwoledge of everything and the fact that he is hadhir and nadhir means that he is actually wintessing and seeing all the events as they happen (so according to them there is no need to be informed if he is already seeing). this clearly opposes the true cocnept which is that nabi gains some knowledge through wahy (revelation).

    “Say (O Muhammad saw): "I possess no power of benefit or hurt to myself except as Allah wills. If I had the knowledge of the Ghaib (unseen), I should have secured for myself an abundance of wealth, and no evil should have touched me. I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings unto people who believe." ( 188 : 7)

    Imam Tabari says : “ If I knew what will happen from what will not after, khayr would multiply, I will gather a lot of wealth, and then there was ikhtilaf in kahyr meant by Allah… some said it is multiplicity of good actions, ...ibn Zayd said : I would avoid evil…some said I would know the infertile from fertile, I would know the expensive from cheap, and gather cheap”


    Imam Suyuti says : “ If I knew the ghayb, that Is HIDDEN to me, I would multiply khayr, and evil would not touch me, from poverty and other being aware of it by avoiding the place of evil”


    Imam Qurtubi says : “ The meaning is If I knew what Allah wants from me before he makes me know, so I can do it. It has been said “ If I knew when victory will come to me in battle, I would never lose”…It has also been said “ If I knew the business benefiting I would buy before its lose, and it has been said “ If I knew when I will die, I will gather good actions” and from Hassan from Jurayj “ The meaning is “If I knew ghayb I would answer all I am asked” and all of this is meant Allah knows best”


    “This is of the news of the Ghaib (unseen) which We reveal by Inspiration to you (O Muhammad saw). You were not (present) with them when they arranged their plan together, and (also, while) they were plotting” ( 102 : 12)

    Imam Tabari said that the Prophet saw was not shahid(witness) when they gathered to plot neither did he see.


    Imam Qurtubi says : “ “ nuhy ilayka” meaning we inform you this by wahy”. So According to Qurtubi, The Prophet saw only knew that by Wahy, and he was not there, neither hadhir, neither nadhir.


    Imam Suyuti says “ Akhbarul Ghaybi that were HIDDEN to you Ya Muhammad saw… wa hum yamkurun meaning you were not present with them so that you can know their story, and tell it, this knowledge only came to you by way of Wahy”


    "This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, i.e. the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad saw). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed.” ( 44 :3 )

    Imam Qurtubi says “ This is from the prove that of Muhammad saw prophecy as he received news from the history of Zakariya and Mariyam, and he did’t read their book”


    Imam Suyuti says : “ News that were HIDDEN to you…and you were not with them when they disputed for her kifalah so that you can know it and tell about it, you only knew it by the way of Wahy”


    Imam Tabari says “ News of ghayb, the meaning of ghayb is news hidden from these people, which were not given knowledge You and your Qawm, and nobody had knowledge of it except few scholars from Ahul Kitab and their priest, then Allah gave news to His Prophet Muhammad saw, He gave Wahy top it as a prove of his prophecy, … you were not with them, so know O Muhammad saw from the news you were not witness of ( Lam Tashad), you only knew that by our informing you this”
  5. abubakr

    abubakr Guest

    Asalamu alaykum

    The barelvi belief that nabi saw has knowledge of all things that he has knowledge of what has happned and everything that will happen is refuted by countless hadith in sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. The following are hadiht which show nabi didnt know of many things.

    Muslim Book 040, Number 6847:

    This hadith has been narrated through other chains of transmitters on the authority of Ibn Abbas, (and) the words are: While Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver a sermon, he said: 0 people, Allah would make you assemble barefooted, naked and uncircumcised (and then recited the words of the Qur'an):" As We created you for the first time, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon us. Lo! We are to perform it, and the first person who would be clothed on the Day of Resurrection would be (Hadrat) Ibrahim (peace be upon him)" and, behold! some persons of my Ummah would be brought and taken to the left and I would say: My Lord, they are my companions, and it would be said: You do not know what they did after you, and I would say just as the pious servant (Hadrat 'Isa) said:, I was a witness regarding them as I remained among them and Thou art a witness over everything, so if Thou chastisest them, they are Thy servants and if Thou for- givest them, Thou art Mighty, Wise" (v. 117-118). And it would be said to him: They constantly turned to their heels since you left them. This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Waki' and Mu'adh (and the words are):" What new things they fabricated."

    Sahih Bukhari Afflictions and the End of the World

    Volume 9, Book 88, Number 172:

    Narrated Asma':

    The Prophet said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned Apostates as renegades (deserted their religion).'" (Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").

    Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

    Volume 9, Book 88, Number 174:

    Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd:

    I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me! "

    Volume 6, Book 60, Number 150:

    Narrated Ibn Abbas:

    The Prophet said, "You will be gathered (on the Day of Resurrection) and some people will be driven (by the angels) to the left side (and taken to Hell) whereupon I will say as the pious slave (Jesus) said:-- "And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them...the ALMIGHTY, the All Wise." (5.117-118)

    Inshallah more to come. look at the first hadiht in sahih muslim and see how it explains the menaing of witness and how it contradicts barelvi belief.
  6. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    “My life is better for you” (Hayati khayrun lakum) and Lake-Fount Hadiths
    Answered by Shaykh Gibril Haddad

    Q. What is the status of the hadith, "My life is better for you and my death is better for you . . ." and how is it reconciled with the hadiths that mention the Prophet not being aware of the members of his community negation of their shahadah, such as,

    The Prophet said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned Apostates as renegades (deserted their religion)."

    al-Bukhari 9.99.172

    A. Wa alaikum as Salam wa rahmatullah:

    May Allah bless your deeds with His acceptance and increase your beneficial knowledge.

    This reply is in two parts. The first part is about the status and meaning of the first hadith. The second part reconciles the apparent contradiction with the second hadith by contextualizing the latter through its variant wordings.

    I. The Hadith "Hayati Khayrun Lakum"

    The Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: "My life is an immense good for you: you bring up new matters and new matters are brought up for you. My death, also, is an immense good for you: your actions will be shown to me; if I see goodness I shall praise Allâh and if I see evil I shall ask forgiveness of Him for you."

    (H.ayâtî khayrun lakum tuh.dithûna wa yuh.dathu lakum wa-wafâtî khayrun lakum tu`rad.u a`mâlukum `alayya famâ ra'aytu min khayrin h.amidtu Allâha wa-mâ ra'aytu min sharrin istaghfartu Allâha lakum.)

    Narrated from Ibn Mas`ûd by al-Bazzâr in his Musnad (5:308-309 §1925) with a sound chain of trustworthy narrators as stated by:

    1. al-Suyût.î in Manâhil al-S.afâ (p. 31 §8) and al-Khas.â'is. al-Kubrâ (2:281),
    2. al-Haythamî in Majma` al-Zawa'id (9:24 §91),
    3. al-Zarqânî in Sharh. al-Muwat.t.a' (1:97) and his commentary on al-Qast.allânî's Mawâhib al-Lâduniyya.
    4. al-`Irâqî in T.arh. al-Tathrîb (3:297) – his last book, as opposed to al-Mughnî `an H.aml al-Asfâr (4:148) where he questions the trustworthy rank of one of the narrators in al-Bazzâr's chain cf. al-Zabîdî, Ith.âf (9:176-177).
    5. Shihâb al-Dîn al-Khafâjî in his commentary on Qâd.î `Iyâd.'s al-Shifâ (1:102).
    6. Shaykh `Abd Allâh al-Talîdî said in his Tahdhîb al-Khas.â'is.al-Kubrâ (p. 458-459 §694) that this chain is sound according to Muslim's criterion.
    7. Shaykh Mahmûd Mamdûh. in Raf` al-Minâra (p. 156-169) discusses it at length and also declares it sound.
    8. Their shaykh, Sayyid `Abd Allâh ibn al-S.iddîq al-Ghumârî (d.1413/1993) declared it sound in his monograph Nihâyat al-Âmâl fî Sharh.wa-Tas.h.îh. H.adîth `Ard. al-A`mâl.

    Opposing these judgments, al-Albânî declares it weak in his notes on al-Qâd.î Ismâ`îl's Fad.l al-S.alât (p. 37 n. 1) and in his Silsila D.a`îfa (2:405).

    It is also narrated with weak chains from Anas and – with two sound mursal chains missing the Companion-link – from the Successor Bakr ibn `Abd Allâh al-Muzanî by Ibn Sa`d (2:194) and Ismâ`îl al-Qâd.î (d. 282) in his Fad.l al-S.alât `alâ al-Nabî sallAllahu
    `alayhi wa-Sallam (p. 36-37 §25-26).

    The latter chain was declared sound by:

    9. Mullâ al-Qârî in Sharh. al-Shifâ (1:102),
    10. Shaykh al-Islâm al-Taqî al-Subkî in Shifâ' al-Siqâm, and
    11. his critic Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Hâdî in al-S.ârim al-Munkî (p. 217) despite his excessive rigor and harshness, and may Allâh forgive him!
    12. Albânî himself in his edition of Fad.l al-S.alât.

    A third, weak chain is related from Bakr al-Muzanî by al-H.ârith ibn Abî Usâma in his Musnad (2:884 §953) as per Ibn H.ajar in al-Mat.âlib al-`Âliya (4:23) and Ibn Sa`d in his T.abaqât as per al-Munâwî (3:401§3771). Al-Qâd.î `Iyâd. cites it in al-Shifâ (p. 58 §6) and al-Sakhâwî in al-Qawl al-Badî` (p. 324).

    Al-Albânî declared the h.adîth weak on the grounds that some authorities questioned the memorization of one of its narrators, the Murji' h.adîth Master `Abd al-Majîd ibn `Abd al-`Azîz ibn Abî Rawwâd. However, he was retained by Muslim in his S.ah.îh. and declared thiqa by Yah.yâ ibn Ma`în, Ah.mad, Abû Dâwûd, al-Nasâ'î, Ibn Shâhîn, al-Khalîlî, and al-Dâraqut.nî while al-Dhahabî lists him in Man Tukullima Fîhi wa-Huwa Muwaththaq (p. 124) as stated by Mamdûh. in Raf` al-Minâra (p. 163,167). Al-Arna'ût. and Ma`rûf declare him thiqa in Tah.rîr al-Taqrîb(2:379 §4160) as well as `Itr in his edition of al-Dhahabî's Mughnî (1:571 §3793) and al-Ah.dab in Zawâ'id Târîkh Baghdâd (10:464).

    Even if al-Albânî's grading were hypothetically accepted, then the weak musnad narration in conjunction with the sound mursal one – graded s.ah.îh. by him – would yield a final grading of h.asan or s.ah.îh., not d.a`îf! In addition to this, Mamdûh. quoted al-Albânî's own words in the latter's attempted refutation of Ismâ`îl al-Ans.ârî entitled Kitâb al-Shaybânî (1:134-135) whereby "The sound mursal h.adîth is a proof in all Four Schools and other than them among the Imâms of the principles of h.adîth and fiqh, therefore it is apparent to every fair-minded person that the position whereby such a h.adîth does not form a proof only because it is mursal, is untenable." This is one of many examples in which al-Albânî not only contradicts, but soundly refutes himself.

    Shaykh H.asanayn Muh.ammad Makhlûf wrote in his Fatâwâ Shar`iyya (1:91-92): "The h.adîth means that the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, is a great good for his Community during his life, because Allâh the Exalted has preserved the Community, through the secret of the Prophet's presence, upon him blessings and peace, from misguidance,confusion, and disagreement, and He has guided the people through the
    Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, to the manifest truth; and that after Allâh took back the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, our connection to the latter's goodness continues uncut and the extension of his goodness endures, overshadowing us. The deeds of the Community are shown to him every day, and he glorifies Allâh for the goodness that he finds, while he asks for His forgiveness for the small sins, and the alleviation of His punishment for the grave ones: and this is a tremendous good for us. There is therefore `goodness for the Community in his life, and in his death, goodness for the Community.' Moreover, as has been established in the h.adîth, the Prophet, upon him blessings
    and peace, is alive in his grave with a special `isthmus-life' stronger than the lives of the martyrs which the Qur'ân spoke of in more than one verse. The nature of these two kinds of life cannot be known except by their Bestower, the Glorious, the Exalted. He is able to do all things. His showing the Community's deeds to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, as an honorific gift for him and his Community is entirely possible rationally and documented in the reports. There is no leeway for its denial; and Allâh guides to His light whomever He pleases; and Allâh knows best."

    II. The Hadith of the Lake-Fount

    These hadiths refer to the hypocrites who lived around the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, and whose outward status and designation in his life were the same as the companions. The Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, confirmed this designation when he said to Abd Allah ibn Abd Allah ibn Ubay ibn Salul who had offered to kill his own father, who was the chief hypocrite in Madina: "No, lest people say: Muhammad kills his own companions." Note that the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, in his immense mercy, never despaired that they would repent and he lavished even upon those of them who harmed him the most, his persistant consideration and unfathomable generosity.

    Thus, among those outwardly designated "Companions" will be the unrepentent hypocrites and those who committed ridda, both of whose types are in reality kuffar. Thus they will come as "Companions" but will be turned away. "Each one proclaims his kinship to Layla / But Layla does not confirm it for any of them."

    The question remains: Why is the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, told: "'You do not know they turned Apostates"? There are several answers to this:

    1. The Prophet's designation of them as "My Companions" and the reply of the angels: "Do you not know..." are meant as didactic disclosures to the hypocrites that although they enter into his mercy in this world, they will not be allowed to enter it in the next unless they repent beforehand. The style of this disclosure is dramatic and develops as if from a state of ignorance to a state of discovery in order for the disclosure to be more effective. However, such ignorance-then-discovery are not literal for the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace. How could they be when he is the one who is prophesying that this shall take

    2. Should we hold the view that the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, was only prophesying the general knowledge that this will take place but does not, indeed, know the personal details of those involved, hence he calls them "My Companions" literally, the answer is that the reply of the angels refers to the Murtadds of the Umma whose ridda was
    kept hidden from the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, so as not to harm him. This interpretation qualifies the meaning of the hadith "Hayati khayrun lakum" and thus his nowledge in the grave excludes ridda and the murtadds as this would pain the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, to no end.

    3. A variant of the fount hadith in the Nine Books shows that it includes, in fact, ALL the murtadds of the Umma until the end of time: "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) came to the graveyard and said, 'Peace be upon you, abode of the believing people and we, if God so wills, are about to join you! I love to see my brothers.' They said,'Are we not your brothers, Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'You are my companions, and our brothers are those who have, so far, not come into the world.' They said, 'Messenger of Allah, how would you recognize those persons of your ummah who have not yet been born?' He said,'Supposing a man had horses with white blazes on foreheads and legs among horses which were all black, tell me, would he not recognize his own horses?' They said, 'Certainly, Messenger of Allah.' He said, 'They would come with white faces and arms and legs owing to ablution, and I would arrive at the Lake-Fount before them. Some people would be driven away from my Lake-Fount as the stray camel is driven away. I would call out, 'Come! Come!'. Then it would be said (to me), 'These people changed themselves after you.' I would then say, 'Be off, be off."

    4. Another version in the two Sahihs, Sunan and Musnad alludes to the fact that the actual Companions of the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, are excluded, because he retells the fount scene as part of a dream he has just seen and from which he wakes up smiling. If the dream involved the expulsion of any of his actual Companions, it is inconceivable that he would wake up in such a state of cheer and elation:

    The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was sitting among us then he dozed off. He then raised his head, smiling. We asked, 'What makes you smile, Messenger of Allah?' He said, 'A Sura has just been revealed to me, and then recited: In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. Verily we have given you al-Kawthar. Therefore turn to thy
    Lord for the prayer and offer sacrifice, and surely thy enemy is cut off (from the good).' Then he asked, 'do you know what al-Kawthar is?' We said, 'Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said, 'It is a river which my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious, has promised me, and there is an abundance of good in it. It is a lake-fount and my people would come to
    it on the day of resurrection, and the number of tumblers there would be equal to the number of stars. A servant would be turned away from (among the people gathering there). Upon this I would say: My Lord, he is one of my people, and He (the Lord) would say: You do not know what he innovated after you.'

    Benefit: Al-Zarqani in Sharh al-Muwatta' mentions that Ibn Shakir narrates in his Manaqib al-Shafi`i with his chain to Yunus ibn `Abd al-A`la from his teacher al-Shafi`i that the latter said his teacher Imam Malik only regretted including one hadith in the Muwatta', namely, the hadith of the lake-fount. The reason for this, and Allah knows best, is that Malik typically hated for some people to be potentially confused or, worse, misled by certain hadiths connected to doctrine; in this particular case, with regard to either the Prophet's God-given foreknowledge or the honor of his blessed Companions which the Qur'an, the Sunna, and the Consensus made categorical and obligatory knowledge.

    And Allah knows best.

  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator


    One more point, that can easily be noted from sidi Abu Hassan's answer, is that why Allah Subh'ano wa Ta'la and then his angles would permit aberrants to reach the pond Kothar of RasoolAllah 'Alaihi Afdalus Salat wat-Tasleem in the first place?

    RasoolAllah is already informing before it will happen, do you think he will forget on the jugdement day?

    This 'hadith kareem is a clear evidence of the knowledge of unseen of our Master RasoolAllah 'Alaihi Afdalus Salat wat-Tasleem and that those who mock ahl al-sunnah wa jama'ah out of their moronic interpretations of such ah'adith will only be allowed to reach the pond Kother to receive the fruits of their mockery and aberration.

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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    y`aqub ibn ibrahim ad-darruqi and Hajjaj ibn ash-shayir both narrate from abu `aSim; Hajjaj said, ‘abu `aSim narrates that `azrah ibn thabit reported from ilyaa’a ibn aHmar who narrates from abu zayd (that is `amr ibn akhTab) who said:

    RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam lead the Fajr prayer and rose upon the pulpit and started his sermon and spoke until it was Dhuhr; he came down and prayed Dhuhr and rose on the pulpit once more and spoke until `aSr; he came down and prayed `aSr and rose on the pulpit and spoke until the sun went down; and [in that speech] he told us everything that happened and everything that shall come to be; the most knowledgeable amongst us is the one who remembers the most [from that speech].

    Muslim, Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashratu’s Sa’ah [i am out of station and the copy of Muslim i have at present is a very old one, without numbering or indexing.]

    qāla Sallā binā Rasulullāhi sallāllahu `alayhi wa sallam al-fajr wa Sayida’l minbar fa khaTabanā Hattā HaDarati’DH DHuhr fa nazala fa Sallā thumma Sa`yida’l minbar fa khaTabanā Hattā HaDarati’l `aSr; thumma nazala fa Sallā thumma Sa`yida’l minbar fa khaTabanā Hattā gharabati’sh Shamsu fa akhbaranā bimā kāna wa bimā huwa kāyin; fa a’alamunā aHfaDHunā.
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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    nobody can blame the salafi istidlal (note that even deobandis have used this example); their simple minds cannot comprehend rich expressions.

    so according to the salafi Allah ta'ala doesn't know that the kafirs are dishonorable, because He refers to them as 'respectable, and honorable'.

    taste this! verily, you are respectable and an honorable one!

    only a moron will take the ayah literally. in this ayah, the kuffar are chided and derided; it is an expression and perhaps the salafi/deobandi brigade may be advised to look up the dictionary for the word: 'sarcasm'.

    the hadith is of similar nature; the munafiqs will be turned away from the pond and derided in such tones.

    now for the objections of the salafi: "I will recognise them and they will recognise me."

    so were they not AFTER the time of RasulAllah Sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam? sohe doesn't have the knowledge of what they did, but he certainly RECOGNIZES them? what is more, the news is about things that will happen MUCH AFTER - on judgement day, isn't it?

    if they are talking of the munafiqs from RasulAllah's time, then there is a Hadith where RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam told sayyiduna hudhayfah raDiyallahu anhu of every one of them; and sayyiduna `umar radiyallahu `anhu would ask him if his name was on the list.

    and what about the Hadith that says about the final days: 'i can name every person and his tribe and the color of their horses..?'

    the 'laa tadree' or 'you do not know' is used for emphasis and not for negation.

    actually the Hadith is itself poorly translated and the objections weakly formed. i am just throwing back what was said, though a more rigorous explanation can be given by the knowledgeable.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  10. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    Re: A hadith proves us wrong


    a commoner like me can answer as follows

    its now the salafis but this hadith text is frequently used by rafdis to prove that sahaba turned against the sunnah after the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

    I can argue that "I will recognise them and they will recognise me" is a proof for the case and not against it.

    Yes !

    "'Away away those who brought changes after me." is the crux of the hadith and ahlusunnah agrees with that in whole. That anyone who brings in innovation into the religion which has no basis in shariah has indeed wronged himself and the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

    How did you come to this faulty conclusion ? that it is talking about "us", the ahlus sunnah. what does a man do if some dimwit tags him a dog , shows him the hadith that "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog " and asks him to not enter any house ?

    will the man say that he does not agree with the tag or will he go around looking for special cases wherein he might be allowed to enter a house being a dog ?

    may allah protect us all.


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  11. AbuSanaa

    AbuSanaa Guest

    Assalaamu alaikum

    I came across a hadith that the wahhabi use to demonstrate how we (Ahl us sunnah wal jamaah) are wrong. The hadith is reported in Al-Bukhari and goes:

    Sahl ibn Sa'd said that he heard the Prophet (saw) say:
    "I will be at the pond (hawd) before you. He who reaches it will drink from it and he who drinks from it will never feel thirst. There will be several groups of people coming to me. I will recognise them and they will recognise me. Then, we will be separated. I will say, 'These people are from me (my ummah)'. It will then be said, 'Verily, you don't know what they have changed after you'. Then I will say, 'Away away those who brought changes after me.'" (Bukhari)

    According to wahhabi, this hadith, among others, shows two very important things:

    - Firstly, that Rasoolullah (saw) does not know what happens on earth after his demise, since he will be said "... you don't know what they have changed after you" (laa tadree maa baddaloo ba'dak). This seriously puts into question the concept of 'Ilm ul ghayb of the Prophet (saw)

    - Secondly, that people who bring changes (innovations) after Rasoolullah (saw) will be deprived of his favours. Here, direct reference is made to us people of Ahl us sunnah wal jamaa'ah, who are tagged as innovators and mubtadi'een.

    Now, this is a strong point to which I have not found any answer up to now. Can anyone help me out with this? May Allah bless you. Jazaakallah.

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