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Discussion in 'Bickering' started by AbdalQadir, Apr 30, 2015.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother mentioning non-desis as 'exceptions' still implies we're the 'norm'. i do understand you're talking about your own experience.

    my experience about the popular ones on the internet is that desi or not, truth-tellers are very very few.

    Asrar Rasheed and Abu Adam are two i can think of right now from the english speakers/writers. there would be some others too, but i can't search right now or think them off the top of my head. those guys who took up hanson on the qadiyani issues, i still can't figure out why they went invisible (from the net)

    why not just be overjoyed at just the truth telling right from the start? truth is independent of desi or non-desi. it won't shine any lesser based on who said it.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I wrote:
    why, I just met shaykh jameel bin arif al-husayni al-philistini a week ago and he is as vocal and fierce against the heretics as ever. and then there's sh. jameel al-haleem al habashi. his videos speak for themselves. we have also seen bayans of shaykh shamsuddeen aljazairi on the forum and his manner of refuting the wahabiya. Shaykh sa'id faoudah is also good but he too is a wee bit 'restrained' for my tastes.

    how many desis here?

    the complete sentence is as follows:

    it's just that amongst the popular ones(see ahmad tayyab at the recent dubai drama), more so on the internet (do I have to even mention a name?), there are few non-desis who believe in calling a spade a spade and so when I run into one of the exceptions I am overjoyed.

    reinforces my racist 'attitude'?

    first you say it's my 'attitude' to which I clarify that it's my 'experience'. Now you say it's my 'claim'. So I will say again, it's my 'experience'.

    I said 'when I run into one of the exceptions I am overjoyed' which is as subjective as it gets. If you have a different 'experience' then you should say that and spell a few names as I did.

    When I keep coming across more and more such 'gallant' and 'ghayyoor' non-desi names then, it goes without saying, my 'experience' will change and I will keep getting less and less 'overjoyed' about them being 'non-desi-truth-tellers' and more and more about just their 'truth-telling'.
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    no worries. i too apologize if i offended you.
  4. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Unreserved apologies for offending AQ and more so to Unbeknown (recently in other thread).
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    sure, my point was not about the pie-eaters at deenport. it was about the kind of comments and not about deenport in particular. i liked your post but your insinuation that only desis can call a spade a spade in terms of refuting heresy, something you have reinforced by

    does have a racist element to it.

    the post i referenced didn't mention the internet specifically, but in any case that claim too is invalid.


    it's a shame that both of you couldn't see sherkhan's harshness, sarcasm, and uncalled for comments right from the beginning of the thread, but could only see my reply at the end.


    as for unbeknown's comments about marifah guys getting turned off by words like zindiq, maybe those he spoke to or he can suggest a proper word for someone who gives an air of Muslim-ness but yet propagates kufr and "appeases the enemies of Islam" parroting "pop-shaykhs". weren't you the guy that champions calling a spade a spade?


    anyways, it is ok for unbeknown to say

    but Allah forbid if AQ ever used such words!
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you are talking to AQ on sunniport. (AQSP - look at it as "axe" with a : p trailing)
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    @AbdalQadir now please don't get offended and start another confrontation but try and understand this:

    that sarcastic post was uncalled for. you have grasped the concept of 'ashiddaau 'alal kuffar' very well but you simply can't seem to understand 'ruHamaau baynahum'. Why do you have to be rude to people? can't the same thing be explained in a polite manner?

    you talk about justifying deenport comments - have you any idea what people over at marifah and elsewhere think about our forum? One user whom I invited to join us here in discussing the devbandis categorically said that many times he changed his decision after having made up his mind to join the forum just because he didn't like the 'atmosphere' here where every other post contains words such like 'zindiq' and 'agents' etc. For my part I told him that it's a public forum and one or two people's language should not be taken as representative of the attitude of everyone else. But you see the picture?

    what need is there to run with a scimitar at every other person who, as per your understanding, 'deserves' to be corrected?
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    attitude? it's my experience.

    Is it my fault that the internet is filled with arab and western 'scholars' who do find in themselves neither courage nor walwalah to defend the deen on what we call in urdu as 'danke-ki-chot-par'? G.F haddad sometimes came close enough but not exactly except in one case where he was defending his shaykh against some umar vadillo. you must've seen how sarcastic and unbridled he was. So there are but few on the internet.

    why, I just met shaykh jameel bin arif al-husayni al-philistini a week ago and he is as vocal and fierce against the heretics as ever. and then there's sh. jameel al-haleem al habashi. his videos speak for themselves. we have also seen bayans of shaykh shamsuddeen aljazairi on the forum and his manner of refuting the wahabiya. Shaykh sa'id faoudah is also good but he too is a wee bit 'restrained' for my tastes.

    it's just that amongst the popular ones(see ahmad tayyab at the recent dubai drama), more so on the internet (do I have to even mention a name?), there are few non-desis who believe in calling a spade a spade and so when I run into one of the exceptions I am overjoyed.

    deenporters are a bunch of hypocrites who reserve their acrimony and hatred for anyone who criticizes their pop-shaykh but are mellower than whipped cream when it comes to appeasing the enemies of Islam. they are a PART of the problem and so count less than fluff in my estimation.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I never said that. I merely tried to answer your question as to why he might have removed the link.

    thank you. but the things I have said about cutting out names and not even appearing to take sides etc. are still applicable.

    see this paragraph:

    There is a difference between saying something is kufr and making takfiir for specific individuals. One of my sħaykħs’ way in these matters is to give the rules, without commenting on specifics. So if you told him, “but what if one said so and so, or did so and so,” or “someone said this,” he will simply repeat the rule. Otherwise it becomes a waste of time, and a source for generating satanic whispers with 100s of people coming with 100s of questions. I try to follow his way and I won’t be commenting on individual sayings or statements.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother sherkhan, your post has made me realize my errors. i apologize unreservedly and salute your selective quoting, selective responding, partial mentioning of matters, your comprehension, and your sense of reasoning. it has all made me realize that indeed i am not the only saviour of Sunniyat on this planet.

    i have further realized, very reassuringly, that Sunniyat can and has been only ever defended by us chapati-eaters of the subcontinent and that it is the solemn obligation of every other claimant to Sunniyat anywhere in the world to accept being linked up to and/or reference subcontinental shuyukh when they ever dare to uphold Sunniyat or refute heresy; and to nose dive straight into the 100 yrs worth of to and fro material on the Sunni-deobandi conflict of the subcontinent. it is indeed a major "problem" if they do not do so. how dare someone not link up to us, even after being told to?! such tall poppies need to be cut down!

    once again, please do forgive me. was'salam.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    you get a big laddu for your comprehension of my points. At the risk of repeating myself, I said that removal of links was odd since there was no difference between Shaykh abu Adam's stance and abu Hasan's work.

    what would those peripheral issues of disagreement be? Was aH's direct critique too unpalatably harsh? "The Truth about Lie" hardly referenced any subcontinent "Bareilvi" work, although it did trash deobandiyya.

    I am not abu Hasan's mureed, nor have I yet taken bayah with any one from Bareilly. I know too little of Ala Hazrat's work to make others acquaint with his contributions.

    May be the Shuyukhs of Makkah Mukarramah and Madina Munawwarah were insane to have given endorsement in Hussam ul-Haramain. May be they were arrogant (as opposed to "humble") and dolts (as opposed to "wise") when they endorsed Ala Hazrat's verdicts against deobandiyya. Did they know the language Urdu or did they know the history of divide in the subcontinent?

    too bad that you are the only saviour left of sunniyat.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    do you think only desis can write or say strong and unambiguous words refuting heresies and heretics, and uplifting Sunniyat?

    sorry, but this attitude only gives justifications for people to make comments such as these below (deenport comments quoted on sunniport on this thread)

    sadly for those poor souls, mark hanson admitted* that he was indeed a blithering buffoon and knew nothing about the qadiyanis, and us chappati-munchers were right - not because we brown people wear lungi's and eat chappatis for breakfast, but because qadiyaniat is a dajjalic fitnah that originated in our lands and we know the local language and the cultural and historical "nuances" better than his black pudding and kidney-pie eating "Muslim" fanboys of great britain!!!!

    *albeit shamelessly with arrogant overtones that he is like Sayyidina 3Umar radi Allahu 3anhu or following in his footsteps and that he deserves diplomatic immunity from his errors being pointed out
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    It was not TKM but The Truth about Lie. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. My posts/links in the comments section was in response to Shaykh abu Adam's articles on Imkan al-Kizb.

    I am not sitting here and casting aspersion on his sunniyat. I just found his removal of links perplexing and bit odd since there was no difference between his stance and abu Hasan's work. Mine was not the only comment that was removed; few other comments pointing fingers at deobandis were moderated out.
  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    as long as the ingredients are halal and pure, let people make their own dishes - if you get my point.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    why is that a problem?

    is it fard or wajib to be linked to abu Hasan's works?

    or is it fard or wajib to be linked to the beliefs of the Ahlus Sunnah?

    for argument's sake, let us assume abu Hasan and Abu Adam are both shuyukh of equal standing (within Ahlus Sunnah goes without saying) -

    is it fard or wajib for every Sunni shaykh in the world to be linked to every other Sunni shaykh's works on creed?

    did every single shaykh of kalam link to the works of other shuyukh of kalam?

    besides, on what grounds do you use the words "refused to"? did he tell you explicitly that he refused to be linked to abu Hasan's work? or did he just ignore your comment and the link and you assumed that he "refused" to be linked?

    brother, be calm and think reasonably. i have no doubt you love Sunniyat and hate deobandiyat but this kind of unreasonably pushy attitude is preposterous and quite frankly disgusting. i say again, as a figure of speech and without trying to sound funny - you just can't stuff down desi samosas and laddus down the throats of any and every non-desi you come across!

    since Abu Adam has given no reason to doubt his Sunniyat, maybe you can try and have some husn az-zdhan for him - maybe he thought abu Hasan's book contained topics best not shown to common awam, maybe he disagreed with him on some peripheral issues on which there is ikhtilaf within Sunnis, maybe he just didn't want to be linked to a side within desis, maybe he thought (and he has stated this on his blog posts mentioning the imkan al-kadhib issue) that naming names hardens the antagonism of the blind fanboys, maybe he just didn't read your comments and the links you gave properly and thought it was actually a PRO-deobandi book.... i'm just thinking loudly here.

    chisti-raza's signature comes to mind - sometimes a shaykh's worst enemies can be his own mureeds. if you want people to be acquainted with Ala Hazrat and know the truth about deobandis, your attitude certainly doesn't help. i'm saying it as a Sunni brother.

    i don't represent Abu Adam or abu Hasan.

    i just find your entire attitude repulsive and counter-productive to the interests of Sunniyat, and certainly to the interests of the subcontinental Sunnis and hence the reply to you.
  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    okay sidi, removal of link to TKM is definitely news to me but that gives me an edge this time (or so I think) since I can give an outsider's perspective of this without succumbing to any biases, not even unwittingly.

    I had read a few articles on sh. abu adam's site pertaining to imkan-al-kidhb more than a year ago and so when I was writing this thread I went back for a re-look because I remembered reading a few things there which I wanted to post here, just for a perspective. But what I found was that there are more articles on the topic than I'd read back then and I went through every single one of them for the sake of completeness.

    I was really impressed to know that a non-desi shaykh could write such strong and unambiguous words, to me his anger was evident in every single line of those articles. I felt like I was home. If I didn't know it was sh. abu adam's site I could easily have mistaken it for an article by sidi abu Hasan because his words were as bold and fiery and he made no secret of the outrage he felt at a few fools' unabashed insistence that lying was not impossible for Allah ta'ala.

    You might not agree with me but it's actually a good thing that he avoided names and history. My hunch is that the reason why he removed TKM link is because it named individuals and books and is actually interspersed with references to historical disputes which are only relevant to desis or people who have the time and are interested in finding out the details about the sunni-devbandi conflict, people like faqir and other fence-sitters (I have long interpreted their absolute silence as a sign of hidden bigotry). Besides, perhaps he felt that he might soon be deluged with questions about individuals he scarcely knew and books he had never read if he let the link remain.

    I do not think that the idea behind TKM was to turn it into some central manifesto which every person who considers imkan-al-kidhb muhal should be obliged to sign or laud. It was and is one of the most (perhaps the only) potent rebuttals of that abominable idea in the english language. Independent shuyukh writing about the same topic and agreeing with the conclusions of TKM albeit without so much as hinting that the book exists do not harm it's credibility, nay, add to it and should be welcomed and highlighted rather than suspected and criticized.

    So when I read his responses particularly these lines, I felt it was like an independent jury giving it's verdict on a crime. I mean this person has no stakes on any side of the divide and this is a person known for his independence and unflinching defence of the beliefs he holds dear as his creed.

    You won’t save our view of scholars who have calamities in books attributed to their name by saying it is not kufr, because idiocy or deviance are the only other options. The only way out is to say that it is a forgery, or a slip of the pen (they had something in mind, but wrote something else by mistake), or in some cases, where it is not far fetched, you can make ta’wiil. This is the sensible way to deal with this, not blindly accepting words found in books.

    I tried to find more info about sh. adam but only found bits and pieces and guess where? eshaykh and marifah! So these people have no excuses left to hide behind for not condemning the devbandis and keller. But alas for them they have chosen an unholy silence for which they will have to answer on the morrow.

    I think that people who wish to know sidi abu adam's take on it should write to him and request a review but not make it public without his consent.

  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    can you see the mirror? never mind.

    I have no problems with that. Problem is that he refused to be linked to abu Hasan's work. Why? I'm not looking for an answer from you.
  18. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Wonder if Pir Yaqoubi Saab agrees with Mark's new rants?



    Hamza Yusuf

    1 hr ·

    “So people take the revelation and think it is universally applicable in every time and place,” added Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, a renowned Muslim personality and president of Zaytuna College.

    “For example, Omar bin Al Khattab suspended [the Sharia penalty] for theft during drought.”

    Another example is the apostasy law, which used to be a universal principle and the general mentality of people at that time that leaving one’s religion is a capital offence punished by death, which existed in Christianity also.

    “That was to protect the religion … but it is no longer the mentality for the age we live in, so when you look at the universal principle of Islam it is to attract people towards religion.” However, he said, in the current age applying apostasy law will cause more people to leave religion than to join it so it has an opposite effect.

    As for other Sharia penalties, specialised scholars need to sit and think about them: “It all needs to be reassessed,” he added.
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    besides, Abu Adam's site is not a fatwa site. his stated aim on the site is that it should be a database of proofs and citations etc on Sunni creedal statements and refutation of heretical creedal statements, and it deals principally with wahabis' heresies. it's more about this is Sunniyat and this is heresy rather than he is a Sunni and he is a heretic.
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    are you even for real?

    obaidullah is an issue inside desis! (notwithstanding other related matters you conveniently left out)

    why are you so keen to have non-desis speak about desi things they know not much about????

    will you comment on some internal issues between ghanaian or chinese or nigerian Muslims about whose language and history you know zero to nothing about????


    just imagine if there was a nigerian equivalent of a Sunni-deobandi conflict, and there were nigerian equivalents of Ala Hazrat as well as the infamous 4; and you had no idea about it. let's just name them A & B sides.

    you are an indian Sunni living in india.

    just how absurd would you feel if some nigerian came up to you and asked you to pledge unconditional loyalty to side A or B.

    the sane thing for you to do would be to say: "i don't know much about the A and B sides. i don't know your language or your history of who said what and when. all i know is that i am a Sunni, and these are the articles of faith i believe in" - and those would be articles of faith UNIVERSALLY recognized by Sunnis worldwide.


    what exactly is not done? i didn't get you on that.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
    Haqbahu likes this.

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