Discussion in 'General Topics' started by ahlus-sunnah, Mar 13, 2012.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Disclaimer (again): All I state is:

    a) The Ahbash are either Sunnis or closer to Sunnis compared to the kinds of people listed in post 24.

    b) Much much much lesser fitnah than the kinds of people mentioned in post 24. Their deviancies or idiocies do not reach levels of blatant kufriyat or support for people with such serious violations, like those of the mentioned people.

    c) All their idiocies aside, they're still victims of grossly unfair propaganda and misinformation against them.

    I do not endorse the Ahbash or sign a blanket approval of them and the headaches they cause people. I also don't see why their brazen and short sighted takfeer of some people (and they have made takfeer of some shuyukh I respect) is a bigger issue than wahabis doing the same thing or worse than it!
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    pure rubbish and typical of wahabi lies, exaggerations, and propaganda.

    they don't make takfeer of imam Al-Ghazali. they however, like the paqs team speaks against some scholars, do say that he made some serious mistakes.
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    you speak rubbish.

    i have personal experience with the fitnah caused by the 'licensed' students and cohorts of keller, faraz, mark hanson etc, and have seen first hand the amount of common people who are misled by such crooks; as well as most probably have much more real life interaction than you or anyone on this forum with the ahbash and when i say they are a lesser evil than the dirty hippies listed above, it is based on Sunni creed and actual ground realities. they are indeed worse than the wahabis and shias put together and all said and done and for all of the Ahbash's idiocies, a much much much worse fitnah than the Ahbash!

    first you take an underhanded jab and make a loaded tongue in cheek comment like "put aside your hatred of scholars" and when i state my reasons and ask you to tell me how i am wrong or state your own stance on the reasons i mention for the 'hatred' of the said 'scholars', you don't do that and backtrack

    i don't care but when you make a loaded & accusatory comment at me like "put aside your hatred of scholars" i have a right to ask you why you consider those people 'scholars' and what is your position on their such and such stances (or if you think they never made such and such statements, please just say so). i was decent enough to explain my reasons for my 'hatred of scholars'

    now can you be just as cordial and state your stance on the people and positions listed.

    if you don't wish to 'waste your time taking up my dare' then please take back your "hatred of scholars comment"!

    conditional to retraction of "hatred of scholars" comment leveled against me!

    with peace too.
  4. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Fatwa of Shaykh Wahbat al-Zuhayli against al-Ahbash :

    Dr. Muhammad Wahbat al-Zuhayli of Damascus a specialist of Law, legal
    principles, and Qur’an commentary strongly warned against al-Harari’s group
    the Ahbash and declared them to be an alien group that has infiltrated the
    Ummah to misguide Muslims and spread fitna with support from a non-
    Muslim country. It is on record that their representative in Italy, a certain
    Massimo Abdul Hadi Palazzi, calls himself “a Zionist who loves Israel and

    Fatwa of Shaykh Muhammad Tawfiq al-Buti against al-Ahbash :

    After they declared the major scholar of Damascus Dr. Muhammad Sa.id al-
    Buti to be an unbeliever, he replied on his website: “They have declared
    Shaykh Mutawalli Sha.rawi to be an unbeliever, Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi to be
    an unbeliever, and myself to be an unbeliever. It appears that group thinks that
    they are the only ones whom Allah loves.” His son Dr. Muhammad Tawfiq al-
    Buti declared them deviant in his khutbas in the 1990s and 2000s.

    Fatwa of Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi against al-Ahbash :

    Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi declared about the Ahbash on his website:

    “These Ahbash are a sect that rebelled against the consensus of the Ummah and
    declared the scholars of the Muslims to be unbelievers. This sect has legal
    opinions that are abysmally misguided. They have declared as unbelievers Ibn
    Taymiyya, Ibn al-Qayyim, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Baz, Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab, Sayyid
    Qutb, al-Ghazali, and they have spared no-one. Moreover they are ignorant,
    and they are ignorant of their own ignorance, which is called compound
    ignorance (jahl murakkab). It is as Allah said: {And when it is said unto them:
    Believe as the people believe, they say: “Shall we believe as the foolish
    believe?” Are not they themselves the foolish? But they know not} (2:13).”

    Mufti of Egypt Dr. ʿAli Gomaa’s 1999 fatwa againt the Ahbash :

    In 1999 Shaykh ʿAli Gomaa, who later became the mufti of the Arab Republic
    of Egypt, published the following fatwa which was disseminated on the

    <<This sect is affiliated with a person called ʿAbd Allah al-Harari al-
    Habashi. It is a sect that has an outward side and an inward side. Its
    outward side is conformity with what is ostensibly the madhhab of al-
    Shafiʿi in fiqh and the madhhab of al-Ashʿari in ʿaqida. Its inward side is
    the declaration of Muslims to be unbelievers (takfir al-muslimin), the
    declaration of believers to be depraved sinners (tafsiq al-mu’minin), the
    propagation of fitnah—division and strife in the Ummah, and acting as paid
    agents for the enemies of Islam and Muslims…. We have seen them stir up

    the issue of the direction of qiblah in America in opposition to the findings
    of modern science and in denial of palpable reality claiming that it was an
    innovation. At the same time they stirred up the same trouble in Japan.
    They stirred up the false problem of whether they can pray behind other
    than one of them, food issues, the issue of marriage with Christians and
    Jews, and others of the issues over which there are long-standing
    differences of opinion among the great mujtahids and the major imams of
    the Law. They have declared that intermixing between men and women
    was licit and that the political leaders of Muslims were unbelievers but that
    it was licit to co-operate with polytheists, all in a confused jumble that was
    never said by any madhhab or group of the Muslims before them. They
    spread the news of the death of their leader then they spread the news that
    he was still alive. No one knows exactly what kind of collective psychosis
    those people suffer from, which constantly pushes them to rave and crave
    notoriety in such a bizarre manner. This has made all Muslims disgusted
    with their behavior as Habashis are always associated with confusion
    (fitnah) and division (furqah). Many respectable Islamic institutions have
    issued warnings against them already; among those, the Council for Islamic
    Research in al-Azhar (Majmaʿ al-Buhuth al-Islamiyya fil-Azhar), the
    General Assembly of Scholarly Research, Fatwa, Daʿwah and Education in
    Saudi Arabia, and the Fiqh Council of North America.>>

    Al-Azhar President Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim’s 2001 fatwa againt the Ahbash :

    In August 2001 the president of the University of al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr.
    Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced that al24
    Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the
    position of al-Azhar was that “that group [the Ahbash] is unwholesome,
    untrustworthy, and unislamic in its thinking.”

    Fatwa of the Mufti of Saudi Arabia against al-Harari and the Ahbash
    In conformity with all of the above even the mufti of Saudi Arabia in 1985
    issued a fatwa in which he said: “That group is deviant and their leader, a
    person named ʿAbd Allah al-Habashi, is known for his heresy and
    misguidance. Therefore it is obligatory to have no relations with them and to
    reject and condemn their false beliefs and to warn people against them and
    against listening to them or accepting anything they say.”
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  5. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    al-salam `alaikum

    i have no 'blind brand loyalty' to any of the shuyukh you listed

    ...is what you complain of yet it is clearly what you rely upon to base your judgements.

    i don't know why you care what I think. the position of scholars is known by what other scholars say about them not what shaykh 'google' brings up on the www or any laymen like you or I think. thats why i won't bother waste your or my time taking up your 'dare'. please forgive my mistakes.

    with peace.
  6. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    On one hand you comment on faraz as if you know him very well. On the other hand you are calling his team jahils???

    Tell me do you know this man from among the team?

    Irshad Ali.

    If you do, then tell me if he is a total jahil. If he is not, then you are a slanderer too.

    Which droves of people?
  7. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Fatwa of Shaykh Ibrahim al-Yaqoubi Alayhi Rahma against al-Harari :

    The great Syrian scholar Shaykh Ibrahim al-Yaqoubi (1924-1985) Mufti of
    Malikis then Hanafis in the Umawi Mosque in Damascus mentioned in his
    unpublished record (kunasha) that ʿAbd Allah al-Harari read to him a book
    during his stay in Damascus, which makes al-Harari one of the students of
    Sayyid Ibrahim. The latter was at the forefront of the scholars who expelled alHarari from Syria in the Sixties and declared him “misguided and misguiding others” (dall mudill)
  8. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    I have Attached the Document Below Brother AbdalQadir
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  9. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Shaykh Nazim is from Amongst the Awliya Allah !!
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I thought I acknowledged that in my post.

    I acknowledged that too and said it openly that not everything is good about them either.

    Let me state it again - they have bizarre streaks of both wahabism and shiaism in them.

    Furthermore, let me state again, that I do not have a special spot for them.

    All I state is this - they might well be deviants or Sunnis bordering on deviancy because of the many odd opinions they follow.

    However, they are a lesser evil than:

    1. gibril haddad - because he blindly defends a phoney and a major fitnah like nazim

    2. nazim & kabbani - too many deviancies to list, starting with general amnesty for kafirs, respecting the pope so much that he asks him to make dua for him, and more...

    3. nuh "not intrinsically impossible to lie" keller - need i say more

    4. mark hanson - see his 'who are the disbelievers' where he refuses to acknowledge disbelievers as disbelievers and his common ground essay and how he has openly said he considers sabians as a saved sect, and how he refuses to say that kafirs shall suffer everlastingly in hellfire.

    5. tim winters - who believes kafirs shall attain shafa3ah of the Prophet

    6. zaid shakir - who uses/used phrases like 'children of God'

    7. anyone else who has knowingly signed to the "a common word" rag which addresses the pope and christian priests as "his holiness", notwithstanding so many other deviancies

    8. money spinners like faraz rabbani - i know for a fact that faraz has hired total jahils on his "seeker's hub" 'scholars' team whom he knows that they possess no knowledge of deen, and they are misguiding people in droves!

    9. qardinul tahir - you will find a truckload of reasons on this forum for 'hatred' of this man

    and I will choose them over these kind of people any day! Hope you can see it in the perspective I was putting it in! Heck I even stated their political affiliations with kafir politicians and shias!

    I do not appreciate underhanded jabs brother. I have hatred of select few personalities for a reason and I have given the reasons. If you feel I am wrong, tell me how, rather than throw more of this emotional blackmail!

    If you chose to be willfully blind to the fitnah some 'scholars' are causing and how badly they are poisoning the faiths of Muslims, much worse than the Ahbash, then that is not my problem!

    Can I ask you to put aside your blind brand loyalty to a select few celebrity 'shuyukh' that show up on google searches and investigate the truth of the matter behind their deviancies in light of the 3aqidah of the Ahlus Sunnah?

    Can you dare to respond to my above listed 9 deviancies and their associated personalities - directly - without beating about the bush?

    Can you say openly whether you agree or disagree with those disgusting positions listed above by the mentioned people without hiding behind rhetoric like "isn't it obvious" and "my stance is clear"?

    If you don't respond, your response will still be clear as daylight!

    Why quote these kind of people to strengthen his case when he speaks against wahabis in other places? Where are the ethics?


    Btw, I can't download that file.
    Can you attach it here?


    It might come as a surprise to some people but there's a real world beyond a select few internet search results and plenty more real and qualified shuyukh exist in that world. These days I'm enjoying it a lot more than the closed confines of the internet and it's limited search results from a select few (max) 30-50 'shuyukh'!
  11. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    It was because he refused to declare Ibn Taymiyya an apostate.

    Brother Abdal Qadir, your post above is just based on your limited observations and not any research. Of course not everything is bad about the Ahbash but put aside your hatred of the scholars and read with an open mind sh. Gibril's expose on the late sh. Abdullah al-Harari

  12. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    ''Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Alawi al-Maliki Alayhi Rahma the late Hadith scholar announced in 1999 that Shaykh Abdullah Harari brazenly declared him an apostate only because al-Maliki refused to declare Ibn Taymiyya an apostate in his books. Anyone who does not declare Ibn Taymiyya to be an unbeliever is himself an unbeliever according to the Ahbash which is pure extremism.''
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ^can you state brother the reason why they said so, and what is the refutation for that reasoning and that ruling.
  14. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Alawi al-Maliki Alayhi Rahma the late Hadith scholar announced in 1999 that Shaykh Abdullah Harari brazenly declared him an apostate !!
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    As AH said, they're deceived by deobandi propaganda. Their OWN beliefs on ilm-e-ghayb is the same as ours; that the Prophet's, 3alaihis salam, ilm is haadith and Allah's is qadeem, and that the Prophet knows as much ghayb as Allah taught him. How much Allah taught him is obviously known only to Allah and the Prophet himself who learnt it.

    As I said, they do have an odd streak or two, bizarrely from both wahabis and shias, but they are Sunnis for the most part, and in fact their fitnah is nowhere close to the fitnah of gibril haddad, nazim al-qubrusi, nuh "not intrinsically impossible to lie" keller, faraz rabbani et al.

    They love Imam Busiri and the Burdah, but like the wahabis they too take objection to "wa min 3uloomika 3ilm al-lauhi wal-qalami". However, they do not call it as shirk or bid'ah like the wahabis. They say that Imam Busiri made a mistake and we should not repeat it by reciting this couplet from the Burdah (the other parts being fine). Just to give you an indication of their wahabi streak.

    Perhaps the Ahbash of the UK say that due to wahabi/deobandi propaganda. Elsewhere we told them clearly Ala Hazrat's stance that to deny the Prophet's being human is kufr, they agreed. However, they do not accept the hadith about rays of light shining from the spaces between his blessed teeth as a miracle.

    This is not just something against Barelwis. They reject the hadith of Jabir or anyone who adheres to it. They don't do takfeer of anyone but they do say that anyone who imagines Allah to be a body of light, and the Prophet being a "part" (juz) of that, he blasphemes. If they're told no Sunni believes in the said hadith in that fashion, then they denounce the hadith as inauthentic on hadith science grounds anyways.

    This is a lie and propaganda against them.

    They call him a sahabi and say that his transmission of hadith is perfectly sound and acceptable.

    They however do say he made a "big mistake" that cost many Muslims their lives. I've never seen them use a "radi Allahu 3anhu" after his name, but I don't know if this is an actually stated position with them that one should not use it for Sayyidina Ameer Mu3awiya (radi Allahu 3anhu).

    Likewise, I've also never seen them call him a "fasiq".

    (I'm only stating my experience. If they do have any 'officially' stated positions contrary to what I have stated, I stand corrected!)

    This probably is their shia streak.


    But their odd streaks are nowhere close to the MAJOR heresies of people like nazim, or nuh "not intrinsically impossible to lie" keller, or gibril's blind defense of nazim,


    They also say that Imams Ghazali and Suyuti made some big errors in some places.


    Yes they do have streaks of both wahabism and shiaism in them, but a lot of what is said about them is propaganda because whatever they feel is a spade, they call it - and the people of pompous "adab" like faraz rabbani, nuh "not intrinsically impossible to lie" keller, hisham kabbani, etc. can't digest it - and then people make them out to be worse than they are.

    When the Ahbash say they have a problem with xyz, they give the xyz person/group's position, state why it is wrong, and then give what they think is the right reason.

    I have yet to see any of these people who speak against them, do the same with them.

    All their moaning and groaning is - "but they called nazim a bad guy" "they said Habib Ali made this mistake" bla bla bla - basically nothing but emotional blackmail, without actually refuting their accusation.

    Like it or not, or agree with them or not - a lot of what has happened with them is what has happened to the "Barelwis" as well, namely false propaganda and misinformation!

    Despite their odd streaks, they are Sunnis, or at least closer to the Sunnis than the people who lash out at them!

    All these people gleefully watch the "Sufi" parade in his brand new khirqa, while the Ahbash are like the young boy who at least has the courage to say what he is seeing, even if he doesn't understand all of it!

    Try going on marifah and question why is Habib Ali or Habib Umar on the Common Word team when it is explicitly honoring the pope as "his holiness" (or its Arabic equivalent)? Has he seen these salutations at the christians?! If so, did he try to talk them out of it? That's just the start of the problems with the "A Common Word" initiative!*

    * PS. I know the Ahbash have endorsed the Amman Message. I don't remember now if they're on the "Common Word" team or not! For all their directness in pointing out any emperor's new clothes, they also form political/strategic worldly alliances with people, which includes western politicians as well as shias (in a lot of their social diners they will call western politicians, christian priests, and shias, in the name of multiculturalism, but they won't invite wahabis lol, and also don't care for hindus/buddhists) but in any case I have never seen them bend over backwards in front of the kafirs as much as the mureeds of nuh keller, nazim, et al do! In short all politics is dirty, and perhaps they too are slippery in their siyasah, but they're nowhere as bad as those who speak against them!


    Disclaimer - I am NOT a Habashi. I also do NOT agree with all their positions, specially the kind of odd streaks I pointed out. I will however, defend them against unfair attacks from those who attack them and their only daleels are 'they said xyz is wrong'-style loaded comments and emotional blackmails. It is because I know we too endure a lot of the same tactics used against us AND also because I know that those who attack them only do it because they know they're either fully wrong or partially wrong-er compared to the Ahbash and it burns them from the inside!

    For once I would like all these people to talk in this manner.

    Habashis say - shaykh xyz is wrong because of abc position.

    1 - This is shaykh xyz's abc position.

    2 - This is the daleel behind it supporting the abc position.

    3 - This is why the Habashi's are wrong!

    rather than the

    'they cause fitnah because they spoke against my shaykh... MY SHAYKH..... MY SHAYKH GODDAMMIT, how dare they?!'


    edit - as an anecdote of them being the young boy who will speak against any king and his clothes, i know for a fact that the Ahbash that I know, they don't have a very high opinion of deobandis either. those of them who know the deobandis well, know that they are like jello and have no solid form. some of them have personally told me that a deobandi will become a wahabi in front of wahabis and will invoke istighatha (they permit it) towards the Prophet, when around them, and therefore they lost all respect for them!

    those of them who don't know, they don't know!

    of course with Arabs or any other non-desi, if they don't know the depth of deobandi fraud, then really they can't be expected to behave like we do.
  16. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

  17. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    The Ahabash have also opened an institute called the ''AICP'' in Birmingham :


    Why doesnt Shaykh Asrar debate this group who are in Birmingham ?
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  18. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    JazakAllah Khair
  19. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    They are also Against :

    Shaykh Sa`id Foudah, the entire Naqshbandi Haqqani Tariqa of Shaykh Nazim al-Qubrusi [including Shaykh Gibril Haddad and Shaykh Hisham Kabbani and Grand Shaykh Abdullah Faiz Daghestani], Shaykh Mahmud Efendi Naqshabandi , the entire Shadhili Tariqa of Shaykh Ahmad al-`Alawi [including Shaykh Muhammad al-Hashimi, Shaykh Abdul Qadir Isa, Shaykh Ahmad Jami, Shaykh Abdul Rahman Shaghouri and Shaykh Abdul Qadir as-Sufi and his Murabitun], the entire Tijani Tariqa ..
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  20. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Their Views on Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi :

    There is no point in meeting this man , he is not a scholar of Hadith he just goes around story telling ! he is only big in the Uk , he is nothing in syria !

Share This Page