Ali ka pahla number

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by OsmanliNaqshbandiRizvi, Mar 5, 2021.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    we don't need kashf to recognise trolls and tafzilis pushing their agenda.

    and in the next post:

     
  2. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    *** Tafzili Alert Beware ***

    There we go, another new user joining the forum just to trigger a debate around his twisted ideologies, which are "Yes I agree maqaam of Shaykhayn to be greater but in spirituality Ali is greater"! Isn't this the same thing the rafizi tola of whom Iran Shah is a prime member is going on about?

    To answer your silly question, yes Shaykhayn are spiritually afzal to Mawla Ali (ra). And Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (ra) are spiritually afzal to Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah (ra). This is the belief of the Ahle Sunnat.
     
  3. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother Shahnawazgm,
    When Hazrat Syedina Amir Muawiyah (RA) became the Khalifa was he the highest in spirituality? Is it possible that he ruled over others who had greater spirituality than him? If there were others in his rule that were spiritually higher than him, he was still their Khalifa and had authority over all of them. Including Hazrat Imam Hassan (RA), Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) and all the Ahl-e-Bait. Similarly, my understanding is that the "head of Aulia Allah" is a position or a duty that Hazrat Ali (RA) was given.
     
  4. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother abu Hasan.

    You mentioned, 'for their shiyi influence beliefs…' and ‘learn to read books properly and to gain knowledge; not just for hunting quotes that may suit your whims.’

    Did you use miraculous powers of kashf to determine whether I read the book properly or not or if i was just hunting for quotes?

    I'm not saying Hazrat Ali (RA) is greater than Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). As I mentioned in post #9 that "Definitely in maqaam Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) is 1st, Hazrat Omar (RA) is 2nd, Hazrat Uthman (RA) is 3rd and Hazrat Ali (RA) is 4th." I'll also point out that I don't believe as the rafidhis do that Hazrat Ali (RA) should have been the first Khalifa.

    Of course Daata Ali Hujwiri (RA), mentioned the maqaam of Syedina Abu Bakr (RA) to be the greatest of all after the Prophets (AS), and he mentions his other great and wonderful merits too. All I was pointing out is that Daata Sahib wrote that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the “head of all the Friends of God (Auliya-Allah)"

    I’ll ask you, does his mentioning this exclude the first three Khalifas(RA) or any other Auliya-Allah? If so please explain.

    The way I’m understanding it is that Hazrat Ali (RA) has been given a position or duty as the head of all the friends of Allah (SWT). Ala Hazrat’s (RA) fatwa seems to support this as he mentions that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one who gives permission to others to become Wali Allah, whether they are from this Ummah or were from any of the previous ones. Does this exclude the first three Khalifas (RA) or any other walis? If so please explain.


    Brother, do you agree with Ala Hazrat’s (RA) fatwa mentioned by Hafiz Ghulam Muhammad in the video in post #12, that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one who authorizes/grants wilayat to every Wali Allah?

    If Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one that authorizes Wilayat to every Wali, does that not mean he must have been a Wali before he approved anyone else’s wilayat (excluding the Prophets (AS))? Wouldn’t that make him the first Wali Allah? Would this make him head of all the friends of Allah?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  5. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    What is your agenda behind your insistence of "Ali da pehla number"? Are you trying to claim that in spirituality Hazrat Ali (ra) is more afzal to the Shaykhayn (ra)? I say its in fact the opposite. And this is the belief of Ala Hazrat (ra) as well.

    So please don't try and deceive ppl by giving yourself a name of "Raza Khan" on this forum!
     
  6. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother Shahnawazgm,

    Daata Sahib (RA) is talking only of Awliya Allah that aren’t Prophets. All Prophets (AS) are Friends of Allah not just Syedina Ibrahim (AS).
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    wahabis and rafidis (and neem-rawafid) try to bring proofs from those very books in which they are soundly refuted.

    ----
    in kashf al-mahjub is the statement about mawla ali raDiyAllahu anhu:

    kashfmahjub, p120.png


    but only a few pages earlier, the first entry is about sayyiduna abu bakr al-siddiq raDiyAllahu anhu by the SAME daata sahib raHimahullah. anyone with some shame and if they had basic knowledge would never dare to quote sayyiduna data ali hujweri raHimahullah for their shiyi influenced beliefs because kashfu'l maHjub contains refutation of their false aqidah.

    those modern day sayyids who boast: "main ali ka beta hun" should ponder if they are the only ones? and do they really matter in front of "ali ka beta" such as data ganj bakhsh sayyidi ali hujweri?

    ===
    p. 114

    kashfmahjub, p114.png




    p.116

    kashfmahjub, p116.png


    p.117

    kashfmahjub, p117.png


    learn to read books properly and to gain knowledge; not just for hunting quotes that may suit your whims.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  8. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    So does that also make him the head of Khaleelullah Hazrat Ibrahim Alayhis Salaam? After all according to what you have quoted he is head of all friends of Allah!
     
    Umar99 likes this.
  9. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    In Kashful Mahjub, Syed Ali bin Uthman Al Hujwiri (Daata Ganj Baskh), writes

    "Hadhrat Ali bin Abi Talib, may Allah be well pleased with him, the cousin of the Holy Prophet, (SAW), is the head of all the Friends of God (Auliya-Allah). He enjoys one of the highest and most exalted positions in the domain of spirituality."

    Also please see the following video in which a fatwa Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) is mentioned on this matter. Wilayat is granted to every wali only through the permission of Hazrat Ali (RA).



    The position that Hazrat Ali (RA) is granted as mentioned in the fatwa of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA), does this not make him the first Wali? Ali ka pahla number?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is not mutlaq, nor is it mentioned as istighraq.

    because "mawla" does not always mean master. "mawla" is also used as 'helper', 'aide'.
    s66v4.png


    besides RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is "mawla" as in "master" of anbiya and mala'ikah as well.
    this cannot apply to our mawla ali karramAllahu wajhah.

    ---

    abu bakr ka pahla number.
     
    Umar99, Ghulam Ali and Aqdas like this.
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Umar ka pahla number (adl)
    Uthman ka pahla number (haya)
    Fatimah ka pahla number (nasab)
    Khalid ka pahla number (military)
    Muawiyah ka pahla number (naval)
    Sumayyah ka pahla number (martyrdom)

    Where will we stop? When we say pahla number, it is absolute. So it should not be said anyone other than Abu Bakr Siddiq has pahla number.

    If it's for partial excellence, why don't they say it for anyone else...? Also, it is best avoided because there are too many tafdilis amongst us now.

    Let's stop the ambiguity and slogans that create more problems.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  12. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    'Abu Bakr ka pahla' number and 'Ali ka pahla number' are both correct
    We know the hadith: "The sun has not risen or set upon anyone better than Abu Bakr except the Prophets and the Messengers." In other words, 'Abu Bakr ka pahla' number.

    We also know the hadith that our Nabi (SAW) said, "Man kunto Mawla Fa Ali-yun Mawla", "One who has me as his master has Ali as his master." This declaration makes Hazrat Ali (RA) the Mawla of Syedina Abu Bakr As-Siddique (RA) and of every Muslim. This was a position assigned to Syedina Ali (RA) although he is fourth in status. So from the point of view of him being Mawla, we get 'Ali ka pahla number'.

    Definitely in maqaam Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) is 1st, Hazrat Omar (RA) is 2nd, Hazrat Uthman (RA) is 3rd and Hazrat Ali (RA) is 4th.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  14. Naray Takbir
    Naray Risalat
    Naray Hedri
    Har Sahabi e Nabi ﷺ Jannati Jannati
     
  15. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    It’s not the mast one
     
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Regardless, he has defended the slogan whereas in the past, he has criticised it.

    Which Irfan Shah is right?
     
  17. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    I don’t think Irfan Shah Sahib were present when they shouted those slogans. But they did attend later
     
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Irfan Shah sahab himself was present, and he didn't show any sign of being in masti or jazb.
     
    Aqdas likes this.
  19. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    Shah Sahib has given a specific answer to a general question, the question is something else and the answer something else. As you said if this slogan is ok in general then why the need to mention the state? And can one only say/ believe this if he is in a mast state. More deliberate confusion being spread. Sayid Muzaffar Shah Sahib reply to ‘Ali da pehla number, nabeel pls have a listen if you do happen to come across this post:



    new slogans and phrases to further tafzili agenda: categorise superiority into political and wilayat and imply overall afzaliyat is of Maula Ali radiAllahu anh.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Irfan Shah sahib said:

    'If someone says dama dam mast qalandar Ali ka pahla number, then there isn't a fatwa because look at the words. The person is mast, in a state of ecstasy and there is no fatwa when someone is in that state.'

    Here, Shah sahib is actually admitting it is wrong to say Ali ka pahla number because if it wasn't, why would he need to say the person is only saying it in masti (ecstasy)? If the slogan was correct, why is it only valid in a state of ecstasy?

    This proves the slogan is wrong.

    I won't talk about masti but what then is the ruling on the one who says it in his senses? Because what is inferred from Shah sahib's words is that there is no fatwa BECAUSE the person is mast but if he weren't, then there would be a fatwa.

    Secondly, those people who were screaming it at that conference weren't mast. They were within their senses.
     
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