Ali ka pahla number

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by OsmanliNaqshbandiRizvi, Mar 5, 2021.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Pir sahib, Hafiz Ghulam Muhammad Soho, considers Sayyiduna Siddiq e Akbar raDiyaAllahu a'nh to be the first in rank after prophets alaihim afDalus salaat wat tasleem. No sunni disagrees with what he says in the clip, but it does not mean that pir sahab considers Sayyiduna Mawla Ali raDiyAllahu anh to be superior to Sayyiduna Siddiq e Akabar raDiyAllah anh.
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    The slogan 'Ali ka pahla number' was engineered by rafidis to deny the caliphate of the first three rightful caliphs.

    So even if Mawla Ali رضي الله عنه possesses qualities unique to him - and he certainly does and only his enemy can deny that - Ahl al-Sunnah don't raise slogans of Ali ka pahla number.

    If we do, then we're only serving the rafidi cause because the slogan was devised to indicate him being superior and the first caliph, the latter issue being kufr according to jurists.

    There are many sahabah who have firsts and unique merits attached to them but based on those, we don't raise slogans of 'X sahabi ka pahla number.'

    Mawla Umar رضي الله عنه was the first to publicly go to the Ka'abah and announce his Islam. Sayyidah Khadijah رضي الله عنها was first to accept Islam. Abu Salama رضي الله عنه was the first to migrate to Madinah. Sumayyah رضي الله عنها was the first to be martyred for Islam.

    There are numerous other firsts.

    If being first in something is enough to raise the slogan, why is it only done for Mawla Ali, who incidentally is the only one for whom the rafidis raise the same slogan?

    That shows the ill intent here. Why is it reserved only for Mawla Ali?

    And let us not forget, the people who raise this slogan have close ties with those who accept tafdilis as Sunni and revile Amīr Mu'āwiyah رضي الله عنه. Another coincidence? No.

    These aren't coincidences.

    Let those people who claim to be Sunni put their money where their mouth is and raise slogan of Siddiq ka pahla number and clearly say,

    'In superiority, Siddiq ka pahla number' and also announce,

    'Anyone who considers Mawla Ali superior to Hadrat Abu Bakr is not a Sunni.'

    Slogans of pahla number are only for absolute superiority (afdaliyyah mutlaqah) and that is reserved, by Allah ta'ala Himself, for only and only Abu Bakr Siddiq رضي الله عنه.

    If you raise it for every first, you'll have to do it for scores of sahabah and then you have to explain and clarify and so on.

    Avoid confusion.

    Siddiq ka pahla number. End of.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    we don't need kashf to recognise trolls and tafzilis pushing their agenda.

    and in the next post:

  4. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    *** Tafzili Alert Beware ***

    There we go, another new user joining the forum just to trigger a debate around his twisted ideologies, which are "Yes I agree maqaam of Shaykhayn to be greater but in spirituality Ali is greater"! Isn't this the same thing the rafizi tola of whom Iran Shah is a prime member is going on about?

    To answer your silly question, yes Shaykhayn are spiritually afzal to Mawla Ali (ra). And Imam Hasan and Imam Hussain (ra) are spiritually afzal to Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah (ra). This is the belief of the Ahle Sunnat.
  5. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother Shahnawazgm,
    When Hazrat Syedina Amir Muawiyah (RA) became the Khalifa was he the highest in spirituality? Is it possible that he ruled over others who had greater spirituality than him? If there were others in his rule that were spiritually higher than him, he was still their Khalifa and had authority over all of them. Including Hazrat Imam Hassan (RA), Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) and all the Ahl-e-Bait. Similarly, my understanding is that the "head of Aulia Allah" is a position or a duty that Hazrat Ali (RA) was given.
  6. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother abu Hasan.

    You mentioned, 'for their shiyi influence beliefs…' and ‘learn to read books properly and to gain knowledge; not just for hunting quotes that may suit your whims.’

    Did you use miraculous powers of kashf to determine whether I read the book properly or not or if i was just hunting for quotes?

    I'm not saying Hazrat Ali (RA) is greater than Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA). As I mentioned in post #9 that "Definitely in maqaam Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) is 1st, Hazrat Omar (RA) is 2nd, Hazrat Uthman (RA) is 3rd and Hazrat Ali (RA) is 4th." I'll also point out that I don't believe as the rafidhis do that Hazrat Ali (RA) should have been the first Khalifa.

    Of course Daata Ali Hujwiri (RA), mentioned the maqaam of Syedina Abu Bakr (RA) to be the greatest of all after the Prophets (AS), and he mentions his other great and wonderful merits too. All I was pointing out is that Daata Sahib wrote that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the “head of all the Friends of God (Auliya-Allah)"

    I’ll ask you, does his mentioning this exclude the first three Khalifas(RA) or any other Auliya-Allah? If so please explain.

    The way I’m understanding it is that Hazrat Ali (RA) has been given a position or duty as the head of all the friends of Allah (SWT). Ala Hazrat’s (RA) fatwa seems to support this as he mentions that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one who gives permission to others to become Wali Allah, whether they are from this Ummah or were from any of the previous ones. Does this exclude the first three Khalifas (RA) or any other walis? If so please explain.

    Brother, do you agree with Ala Hazrat’s (RA) fatwa mentioned by Hafiz Ghulam Muhammad in the video in post #12, that Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one who authorizes/grants wilayat to every Wali Allah?

    If Hazrat Ali (RA) is the one that authorizes Wilayat to every Wali, does that not mean he must have been a Wali before he approved anyone else’s wilayat (excluding the Prophets (AS))? Wouldn’t that make him the first Wali Allah? Would this make him head of all the friends of Allah?
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  7. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    What is your agenda behind your insistence of "Ali da pehla number"? Are you trying to claim that in spirituality Hazrat Ali (ra) is more afzal to the Shaykhayn (ra)? I say its in fact the opposite. And this is the belief of Ala Hazrat (ra) as well.

    So please don't try and deceive ppl by giving yourself a name of "Raza Khan" on this forum!
  8. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    Brother Shahnawazgm,

    Daata Sahib (RA) is talking only of Awliya Allah that aren’t Prophets. All Prophets (AS) are Friends of Allah not just Syedina Ibrahim (AS).
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    wahabis and rafidis (and neem-rawafid) try to bring proofs from those very books in which they are soundly refuted.

    in kashf al-mahjub is the statement about mawla ali raDiyAllahu anhu:

    kashfmahjub, p120.png

    but only a few pages earlier, the first entry is about sayyiduna abu bakr al-siddiq raDiyAllahu anhu by the SAME daata sahib raHimahullah. anyone with some shame and if they had basic knowledge would never dare to quote sayyiduna data ali hujweri raHimahullah for their shiyi influenced beliefs because kashfu'l maHjub contains refutation of their false aqidah.

    those modern day sayyids who boast: "main ali ka beta hun" should ponder if they are the only ones? and do they really matter in front of "ali ka beta" such as data ganj bakhsh sayyidi ali hujweri?

    p. 114

    kashfmahjub, p114.png


    kashfmahjub, p116.png


    kashfmahjub, p117.png

    learn to read books properly and to gain knowledge; not just for hunting quotes that may suit your whims.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
    Noori, Ghulam Ali, Umar99 and 3 others like this.
  10. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    So does that also make him the head of Khaleelullah Hazrat Ibrahim Alayhis Salaam? After all according to what you have quoted he is head of all friends of Allah!
    Umar99 likes this.
  11. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    In Kashful Mahjub, Syed Ali bin Uthman Al Hujwiri (Daata Ganj Baskh), writes

    "Hadhrat Ali bin Abi Talib, may Allah be well pleased with him, the cousin of the Holy Prophet, (SAW), is the head of all the Friends of God (Auliya-Allah). He enjoys one of the highest and most exalted positions in the domain of spirituality."

    Also please see the following video in which a fatwa Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) is mentioned on this matter. Wilayat is granted to every wali only through the permission of Hazrat Ali (RA).

    The position that Hazrat Ali (RA) is granted as mentioned in the fatwa of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan (RA), does this not make him the first Wali? Ali ka pahla number?
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is not mutlaq, nor is it mentioned as istighraq.

    because "mawla" does not always mean master. "mawla" is also used as 'helper', 'aide'.

    besides RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is "mawla" as in "master" of anbiya and mala'ikah as well.
    this cannot apply to our mawla ali karramAllahu wajhah.


    abu bakr ka pahla number.
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Umar ka pahla number (adl)
    Uthman ka pahla number (haya)
    Fatimah ka pahla number (nasab)
    Khalid ka pahla number (military)
    Muawiyah ka pahla number (naval)
    Sumayyah ka pahla number (martyrdom)

    Where will we stop? When we say pahla number, it is absolute. So it should not be said anyone other than Abu Bakr Siddiq has pahla number.

    If it's for partial excellence, why don't they say it for anyone else...? Also, it is best avoided because there are too many tafdilis amongst us now.

    Let's stop the ambiguity and slogans that create more problems.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  14. Raza Khan

    Raza Khan New Member

    'Abu Bakr ka pahla' number and 'Ali ka pahla number' are both correct
    We know the hadith: "The sun has not risen or set upon anyone better than Abu Bakr except the Prophets and the Messengers." In other words, 'Abu Bakr ka pahla' number.

    We also know the hadith that our Nabi (SAW) said, "Man kunto Mawla Fa Ali-yun Mawla", "One who has me as his master has Ali as his master." This declaration makes Hazrat Ali (RA) the Mawla of Syedina Abu Bakr As-Siddique (RA) and of every Muslim. This was a position assigned to Syedina Ali (RA) although he is fourth in status. So from the point of view of him being Mawla, we get 'Ali ka pahla number'.

    Definitely in maqaam Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) is 1st, Hazrat Omar (RA) is 2nd, Hazrat Uthman (RA) is 3rd and Hazrat Ali (RA) is 4th.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  15. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  16. Naray Takbir
    Naray Risalat
    Naray Hedri
    Har Sahabi e Nabi ﷺ Jannati Jannati
  17. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    It’s not the mast one
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Regardless, he has defended the slogan whereas in the past, he has criticised it.

    Which Irfan Shah is right?
  19. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    I don’t think Irfan Shah Sahib were present when they shouted those slogans. But they did attend later
  20. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Irfan Shah sahab himself was present, and he didn't show any sign of being in masti or jazb.
    Aqdas likes this.

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