Anatomy of Deviation

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Juwayni, Nov 12, 2021.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Comments reproduced in full:

    • Aamir Ibrahim

      In my quest of reading all major aqida books I am certain that Ahlus Sunnah believe in seeing Allah. So one has to leave ahlus sunnah to believe contrary.
      • Mohammed Ali
        محمد معين الدين رضوي if i am not convinced with something i will not accept it,, i am not prepared to believe in a point in aqeeda just because the majority believe in it . the proofs people give that Allah can be seen are not strong and i cant accept them
      • محمد معين الدين رضوي

        Mohammed Ali You gave the above narration to support your statement taht "haq ki payrwi karo, aksariyat ki nahi"
        and then the narration itself clearly mentions that that it will be haq even if alone if that has been the haq of the community before
        fitna came in and only one person remained on the rue position!
        So, it doesn't matter what you want to believe or not when you are not clear on your principles yourself!

      • Zafer Iqbal
        First I heard ahlus Sunnah expect taqleed in aqeedah... you learn sonething new every day.
      • Rasheed Gillespie
        Zafer Iqbal It's implied, since you can't be part of the club unless you accept all of their doctrines. Sure, they say they encourage you to think critically about an issue, but they really only mean critically enough to accept their arguments. So most do indeed tend to blindly accept what's offered as sufficient.
        But if you end up disagreeing, out you get!
      • Mohammed Ali
        Akhtar Noorani the ashari scholars themselves admit that the rational proofs of seeing allah is weak and in reality they are none

      • Mohammed Ali


      • Akhtar Noorani
        Mohammed Ali
        You are using books against the Ashari scholars who themselves openly believe in ru'yah. Deen is not spread by books but by scholars. Otherwise we wouldn't need teachers
      • Akhtar Noorani
        Mohammed Ali thise same Asharis believe in Ru'yah and you trying to tell understsnd their books better. Allahu Akbar. Ajeeb ajeeb
      • Akhtar Noorani
        Mohammed Ali
        Ash'ari scholar. And all ashaa'irah support this. Do younreally think you invented something new? This is what wahhabis do they think their islam is the real islam and they reject all these great scholars. Allah aapko hidayat de


        Will you see Allah SWT in Paradise? | Shaykh Said al Buti
    • Mohammed Ali


      Mohammed Ali
    • Mushfiqur Amir

    • Mohammed Ali
      فإن الأولى ما قد قيل من أن التعويل في هذه المسألة على الدليل العقلي متعذر، فلنذهب إلى ما اختاره الشيخ أبو منصور الماتريدي من التمسك بالظواهر النقلية
  2. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As Salamu Alaykum,

    Came across this discussion online, and wanted to use it as a case study of how deviation actually happens. My question is: what are the processes involved in leading this individual to reject an creedal tenet of Ahlus Sunnah?

    Original post reproduced in full (formatting changes are mine):

    Mohammed Ali
    Proof Allah cannot be seen . Quran and Hadith
    لا تدركه الابصار وهو يدرك الابصار وهو اللطيف الخبير
    Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted. == 6:103
    واذ قلتم يا موسى لن نؤمن لك حتى نرى الله جهرة فأخذتكم الصاعقة وانتم تنظرون
    And remember when you said, ‘O people of Musa, We shall never believe in you until we see Allah plainly.’ But you were seized with a thunderbolt while you were looking. Then We raised you up after death so that you might be grateful. == 2:55
    The People of the Scripture ask you (O Muhammad) to cause a book to descend upon them from Heaven. Indeed, they asked Musa for even greater than that when they said, ‘Show us Allah in public,’ but they were struck with thunder and lightening for their wickedness == 4:153
    And [recall] when you said, "O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright"; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on. == 2:55
    Those who do not expect to meet Us say, “If only the angels were sent down to us, or we could see our Lord!” They have certainly been carried away by their arrogance and have entirely exceeded all limits. == 25:21

    And Pharaoh said (to his people,) “O courtiers, I do not recognize any god for you other than me. So kindle for me, O Hāmān, a fire on the clay (to bake bricks) and build for me a tower, so that I may look on to the God of Mūsā. I deem him to be one of the liars.” 28:38
    The ways into the heavens - so that I may look at the deity of Moses; but indeed, I think he is a liar." And thus was made attractive to Pharaoh the evil of his deed, and he was averted from the
    way. And the plan of Pharaoh was not except in ruin. 40:37
    Abu Musa reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, in Paradise are two gardens with silver vessels and two gardens with golden vessels. Nothing comes between people looking at their Lord except the cloak of greatness over His Wajh in the Garden of Eden. In Paradise is a tent made of hollow pearls, the breadth of which is sixty miles. In each corner is a family and they do not see the others, while the believer roams among them.”
    Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2527
    Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Tirmidhi

    "The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) stood up amongst us and said five things. He said: 'Allah does not sleep, and it is not befitting that He should sleep. He lowers the Scales and raises them. The deed done during the day is taken up to Him before the deed done during the night, and the deed done during the night before the deed done during the day. His Veil is Light and if He were to remove it, the glory of His Wajh would burn everything of His creation, as far as His gaze reaches.'" (Sahih - Ibn Majah)
    It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr: I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him): Did you see thy Lord? He said: He is Noor . How could I see Him? (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0341)

    I said to `Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end ! Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar: Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar." Then Aisha recited the Verse: 'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Courteous Well-Acquainted with all things.' (6.103) 'It is not fitting for a human being that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or from behind a veil.' (42.51)
    Sahih al-Bukhari 4855
    the sunni proof that Allah can be seen is weak .
    their argument is
    1.) everything that exists can be seen
    2.) Allah Exists
    3.) therefore Allah can be seen
    this is refuted by the fact that there is no analogy between the creator and creation . as it is mentioned لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ There is nothing like him 42:11 . and And there is none comparable to Him. 112:4. their argument compares the Wujūd of Allah to the Wujūd of the Creation

    So seeing Allah is rationally possible in this world and the next because Allah is existent and everything that is existent can be seen . Therefore Allah can be seen .
    Tuhfat al-Murid Sharh Jawharatul Tawhid: Arabic, al-Bajuri
    1.) The particle إِلَى used before رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ means that نَاظِرَةٌ does NOT only mean looking but can mean waiting/anticipating or looking with mercy . the proof of this is the verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says regarding the disbelievers
    وَلَا يُكَلِّمُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَلَا يَنْظُرُ إِلَيْهِمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ
    and Allah will not speak to them or LOOK at them on the Day of Resurrection. 3:77
    In this verse إِلَيْهِمْ is used with يَنْظُرُ yet the meaning is not Looking rather it is Looking with mercy as Allah is All-Seeing according to all Muslims. So this proves the claim the sunnis use is against the quran/arabic language .
    2.) The use of the word Wajh (face) in 75:22 doesn't necessarily mean physical face but can also refer to the Entire being like
    {But the Wajh ( face) of your Lord will remain, the Possessor of Majesty and Nobility}
    Its meaning is: your Lord will remain. The word “face” is intended to denote a double meaning, as mentioned in the dictionaries of language. This can be witnessed by the statements of the Arabs: “It is the face of the opinion (huwa wajhu ar-ra`y).” “It is the right direction (wajhu aš-šawab).” The meaning of this is: “The opinion itself” and “the direction itself.”
    3.) The sunni hadith which mention Seeing Allah , mention it in Jannah whereas 75:23 is in qiyamah !!
    4.) The word نَاظِرَةٌ in the Arabic Language has many meanings like waiting, anticipating and Looking in metaphoric sense therefore this verse is not Clear Proof that Allah can be seen .
    وَإِنِّى مُرْسِلَةٌ إِلَيْهِم بِهَدِيَّةٍ فَنَاظِرَةٌۢ بِمَ يَرْجِعُ ٱلْمُرْسَلُونَ
    And surely I am going to send messengers with a present to them, and shall WAIT to see what the messengers bring back. 27:35
    لَّا تُدْرِكُهُ ٱلْأَبْصَٰرُ وَهُوَ يُدْرِكُ ٱلْأَبْصَٰرَ ۖ
    Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted. 6:103
    When idraak is used with the eyes can only be referring to sight. A negation of Idraak of eyes can only mean a Negation of vision . Thus proving 6:103 is a clear negation of vision of Allah .
    6.) The context of 75:23-24 makes it clear that there is a contrast between the believers and disbelievers as one is expecting reward and the other is expecting punishment . So do say that 75:23 refers to Seeing Allah goes against the context and the eloquence of the Quran
    [Some] faces, that Day, will be radiant,, looking towards their Lord, 75:23
    And ˹other˺ faces will be gloomy, ANTICIPATING something devastating to befall them. 75:24
    7.) There are reports from the Salaf that they did taweel of إلى ربها ناظرة looking towards their lord as تنتظر الثواب Expecting the reward of Allah.
    From Tafseer Tabari :
    1ـ حدثني أبو كريب ، قال ثنا عمر بن عبيد ، عن منصور ، عن مجاهد ( وجوه يومئذ ناضرة إلى ربها ناظرة ) قال : تنتظر الثواب.
    2ـ قال ثنا وكيع ، عن سفيان ، عن منصور ، عن مجاهد ( وجوه يومئذ ناضرة إلى ربها ناظرة ) قال : تنتظر الثواب.
    3ـ حدثنا ابن بشار ، قال: ثنا عبدالرحمن ، قال : ثنا سفيان ، عن منصور عن مجاهد ( إلى ربها ناظرة ) قال : تنتظر الثواب.
    4ـ حدثنا ابن حميد ، قال : ثنا مهران، عن سفيان ، عن منصور عن مجاهد ( إلى ربها ناظرة) قال : تنتظر الثواب من ربها ، لا يراه أحد من خلقه شيء.
    5ـ حدثني يحيى بن إبراهيم المسعودي، قال: ثنا أبي ، عن أبيه ، عن جده ، الأعمش ، عن مجاهد( وجوه يومئذ ناضرة) قال: نضرة من النعيم ( إلى ربها ناظرة) قال : تنتظر رزقه وفضله.
    6ـ حدثنا ابن حميد، قال: ثنا جرير، عن منصور، عن مجاهد، قال : كان أناس يقولون في الحديث ( فيرون ربهم ) فقلت لمجاهد : إن ناسا يقولون إنه يُرى، قال: يَرى ولا يراه شيء.
    Abu Kurayb related on the authority of ‘Umar bin
    ‘Ubayd—Manšūr—Mujāhid: {Faces, on that Day, will be radiant,
    looking to their Lord} “It means anticipating reward from Him.”
    - Wakī’ reported on the authority of Sufyān—Manšūr—Mujāhid:78
    {…looking to their Lord} “It means anticipating reward from their
    - Ibn Bashīr narrated on the authority of ‘AbdurRahmān—Sufyān—Manšūr—Mujāhid: {…looking to their Lord} “It means anticipating reward.”
    - Ibn Humayd related on the authority of
    Mahrān—Sufyān—Manšūr—Mujāhid: {…looking to their Lord}
    “It means anticipating reward from their Lord. None of His
    creation will see Him.”
    - Yahya bin Ibrāhīm al-Masū’di related on the authority of his
    father—his father—his grandfather—al-A’mash—Mujāhid:
    {Faces, on that Day, will be radiant} “This means radiant from
    Paradise” {…looking to their Lord} “It means anticipating His
    provisions and blessings.”
    - Ibn Humayd related on the authority of Jabayr
    —Manšūr—Mujāhid: The people were discussing the hadīth:
    “Then they will see their Lord.” I said to Mujāhid: “Some people
    say that He will be seen.” He replied: “He will see, but none will
    see Him.”
    - Jabayr narrated on the authority of Manšūr—Mujāhid:
    {…looking to their Lord} “It means anticipating from their Lord
    what they were promised.”
    - Abul-Khattāb al-Hassāni narrated on the authority of
    Mālik—Sufyān—Ismā’īl bin Abi Khālid—Abi Sālih: {Faces, on
    that Day, will be radiant, looking to their Lord} “It means
    anticipating reward.”

    Even if one was to attempt to weaken all of the reports mentioned above, there are still authentic reports narrated by ‘Abd bin Humayd on the authorities of ‘Ikrimah, Mujāhid, and Abu Sālih that mention that this was their opinion. In Fat-hul Bāri , Ibn Hajar authenticates the reports that Ibn Humayd related on their authorities.
    Opinion of Sunni scholars who have rejected the seeing of Allah
    Abū Bakr al-Jassās al-Rāzī 305-370

    Brief Biography of his life
    His name is Ahmad and his agnomen is Abū Bakr. He hailed from the city of Rayy in present day Tehran, and is, thus, referred to as “al-Rāzī.” As an occupation, he would deal with Jass [limestone], which is why he is also known as “al-Jassās.” He was born in Rayy in the year 305 AH and passed away in Baghdād in the year 370 AH. Abū Bakr al-Rāzī undertook his formative studies in his hometown, Rayy, after which he travelled to Baghdād where he mastered various Islāmic sciences, including Fiqh, Hadīth and Tafsīr. Under the guidance and instruction of his teacher, Abu ‘l-Hasan al-Karkhī, he travelled to Naysāpūr, the center of Hadīth scholars at that time, where he enjoyed the company of the famous Hadīth scholar, al-Hākim al-Naysābūrī [d. 405 AH]. The list of scholars from whom al-Rāzī benefited is lengthy, but famous amongst them are: Sulaymān al-Tabarānī [d. 360 AH] – the great Hadīth scholar, author of the Ma‘ājim –, Abu ‘l-Hasan al-Karkhī [d. 340 AH] – the famous Hanafī authority – and Muhammad ibn Bakr ibn Dāsa [d. 346 AH] – the transmitter of Sunan Abī Dāwūd.
    Al-Khatīb al-Badghdādī [d. 463 AH] praised him, “Abū Bakr al-Rāzī, the jurist, the leading authority of the Ahl al-Ra’y in his time. He studied Fiqh under Abu ‘l-Hasan al-Karkhī and continued until the leadership culminated at him.”[14] Al-Dhahabī also writes, “[Abū Bakr al-Rāzī] was a leading erudite scholar, Mufti, , scholar of ‘Irāq, master of Hadīth and an extensive traveler [in the acquisition of knowledge].”

    He mentions in his tafseer Ahkam Al Quraan under 6:103
    قَوْله تَعَالَى : { لَا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصَارُ وَهُوَ يُدْرِكُ الْأَبْصَارَ } يُقَالُ إنَّ الْإِدْرَاكَ أَصْلُهُ اللُّحُوقُ ، نَحْوُ قَوْلِك : أَدْرَكَ زَمَانَ الْمَنْصُورِ ، وَأَدْرَكَ أَبَا حَنِيفَةَ ، وَأَدْرَكَ الطَّعَامَ أَيْ لَحِقَ حَالَ النُّضْجِ ، وَأَدْرَكَ الزَّرْعَ وَالثَّمَرَةَ ، وَأَدْرَكَ الْغُلَامَ إذَا لَحِقَ حَالَ الرِّجَالِ
    وَإِدْرَاكُ الْبَصَرِ لِلشَّيْءِ لُحُوقُهُ لَهُ بِرُؤْيَتِهِ إيَّاهُ ؛ لِأَنَّهُ لَا خِلَافَ بَيْنِ أَهْلِ اللُّغَةِ أَنَّ قَوْلَ الْقَائِلِ : أَدْرَكْت بِبَصَرِي شَخْصًا مَعْنَاهُ رَأَيْته بِبَصَرِي ، وَلَا يَجُوزُ أَنْ يَكُونَ الْإِدْرَاكُ الْإِحَاطَةَ لِأَنَّ الْبَيْتَ مُحِيطٌ بِمَا فِيهِ وَلَيْسَ مُدْرِكًا لَهُ ، فَقَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى : { لَا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصَارُ } مَعْنَاهُ : لَا تَرَاهُ الْأَبْصَارُ ، وَهَذَا تَمَدُّحٌ بِنَفْيِ رُؤْيَةِ الْأَبْصَارِ كَقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى : { لَا تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلَا نَوْمٌ } وَمَا تَمَدَّحَ اللَّهُ بِنَفْيِهِ عَنْ نَفْسِهِ فَإِنَّ إثْبَاتَ ضِدِّهِ ذَمٌّ وَنَقْصٌ ، فَغَيْرُ جَائِزٍ إثْبَاتُ نَقِيضِهِ بِحَالٍ ، كَمَا لَوْ بَطَلَ اسْتِحْقَاقُ الصِّفَةِ بِ { لَا تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلَا نَوْمٌ } لَمْ يَبْطُلْ إلَّا إلَى صِفَةِ نَقْصٍ ، فَلَمَّا تَمَدَّحَ بِنَفْيِ رُؤْيَةِ الْبَصَرِ عَنْهُ لَمْ يَجُزْ إثْبَاتُ ضِدِّهِ وَنَقِيضِهِ بِحَالٍ ؛ إذْ كَانَ فِيهِ إثْبَاتُ صِفَةِ نَقْصٍ وَلَا يَجُوزُ أَنْ يَكُونَ مَخْصُوصًا بِقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى { وُجُوهٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ نَاضِرَةٌ إلَى رَبِّهَا نَاظِرَةٌ } لِأَنَّ النَّظَرَ مُحْتَمِلٌ لِمَعَانٍ ، مِنْهُ انْتِظَارُ الثَّوَابِ كَمَا رُوِيَ عَنْ جَمَاعَةٍ مِنْ السَّلَفِ ، فَلَمَّا كَانَ ذَلِكَ مُحْتَمِلًا لِلتَّأْوِيلِ لَمْ يَجُزْ الِاعْتِرَاضُ عَلَيْهِ بِمَا لَا مَسَاغَ لِلتَّأْوِيلِ فِيهِ .
    وَالْأَخْبَارُ الْمَرْوِيَّةُ فِي الرُّؤْيَةِ إنَّمَا الْمُرَادُ بِهَا الْعِلْمُ لَوْ صَحَّتْ ، وَهُوَ عِلْمُ الضَّرُورَةِ الَّذِي لَا تَشُوبُهُ شُبْهَةٌ وَلَا تَعْرِضُ فِيهِ الشُّكُوكُ ؛ لِأَنَّ الرُّؤْيَةَ بِمَعْنَى الْعِلْمِ مَشْهُورَةٌ فِي اللُّغَةِ
    It was said that the original meaning of idraak is reaching as one says adraka zaman Mansur - he reached the time of al-Mansur. And one says adraka Aba Hanifata reached Abu Hanifah. And adraka al-ta'am ie the food was ready ( reached the sate of being cooked ; adraka al zar'u wa l-thamarn i.e the crops and fruit were rpe ( reached maturity ; and adraka al-ghulami i.e the boy became a man (reached maturity).

    And idrak al basar li-l-shay Reaching of the sight to the thing , seeing it Beacuse there is no dispute amongst scholars of the language that saying of someone idark basar i shaksan ( i have reached someone with my sight) means I have seen him with my eye. It is not correct that idrak is encompassing . Because a house encompasses what is in it , but it does not idrak or reach to {what is in it} . So Allah's Saying of 6:103 means that Eyes cannot see him . This is praise {of Allah} by negating the seeing of the eyes, as in His saying 2:255 Sleep does not overtake Him nor slumber . Whatever Allah praises by negating it from Himself, then affirming its opposite is dispraise and shortcoming . So confirmation of its opposite is not in any way permissible. For if his deserving the attribute of 6:103 becomes void, then it cannot but lead to an attribution of fault.
    Seeing cannot be particularly affirmed from His saying 75:23. because nazar has several possible meanings, such as waiting for the reward- as has been narrated from a group of the salaf. Therefore, when that interpretation is possible, then objection to it by means of an interpretation which is not possible is not allowable.
    As for the reports that are narrated about seeing, if they are sound- the intended meaning behind them is simply knowledge. It is secure knowledge with no doubt in it , for the use of "seeing" in the sense of 'knowledge' is well known in the language.
    Shaykh Al Islam Ibn Ashoor Al Maliki under 75:23
    فَدَلالَةُ الآيَةِ عَلى أنَّ المُؤْمِنِينَ يَرَوْنَ بِأبْصارِهِمْ رُؤْيَةً مُتَعَلِّقَةً بِذاتِ اللَّهِ عَلى الإجْمالِ دَلالَةٌ ضِمْنِيَّةٌ لِاحْتِمالِها تَأْوِيلاتٍ تَأوَّلَها المُعْتَزِلَةُ
    The reading of the verse that makes it mean - the believers will see with their eyes and their seeing is seeing the Essence Dhat of Allah is a Speculative one, It has made possible the interpretation put forward by the Mu'tazailis.

    Qadi Imam Mawardi As Shafi under 75:23
    Imam Mawardi, one of the classically most renowned Shafii fuqaha and a Qadi (Judge) of the Abbasid Khilafah,
    ﴿إلى رَبِّها ناظِرَةٌ﴾ فِيهِ ثَلاثَةُ أقاوِيلَ: أحَدُها: تَنْظُرُ إلى رَبِّها في القِيامَةِ، قالَهُ الحَسَنُ وعَطِيَّةُ العُوفِيُّ.
    الثّانِي: إلى ثَوابِ رَبِّها، قالَهُ ابْنُ عُمَرَ ومُجاهِدٌ.
    الثّالِثُ: تَنْتَظِرُ أمْرَ رَبِّها، قالَهُ عِكْرِمَةُ.
    إلى رَبِّها ناظِرَةٌ

    They are 3 opinons about the meaning of this verse
    1.) Looking at their lord - Hasan and Atiya Al Awfi .
    2.) Looking at the reward of their lord - Ibn Umar and Mujahid
    3.) Anticipating the command of their lord - Ikrimah
    وجوه يوم بدر ناظرات
    إلى الرحمن يأتي بالفلاح​

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