Biography: Al-Madayini

Discussion in 'Siyar an-Nubala' started by abu Hasan, Mar 6, 2009.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the person who calls himself muhammadi [TPWCHM] quotes ibn adi below and also ibn hajar al-asqalani. he tries to smear al-madayini. some idiot on yanaabi was slandering al-madayini and calling him nasibi whereas al-madayini was known for his love of ahl al-bayt! [see anecdote from siyar]

    indeed, the quote of ibn adi included a beautiful hadith that elevates imam hasan but i don't know why TPWCHM did not include it. perhaps, it would then question the premise that he was a partisan of banu umayyah?

    anyway, both the quotes below are the same. the first is part of ibn adi's quote and the second is ibn hajar quoting ibn adi. TPWCHM has already given us an entirely new interpretation of iddah for men - he will probably extend it for the widowers too and they can claim complete equality for men and women.

    here is the full note in lisan al-mizan, ibn hajar al-asqalani, vol.6/pg.13 entry:5470

    ali ibn muHammad, abu'l Hasan al-madayini al-akhbari (the historian), author of many books. ibn adi mentioned in his 'al-kamil' and said: "ali ibn muhammad ibn abdullah ibn abu sayf al-madayini, mawla of abdu'r raHman ibn samurah is not strong in hadith and is a historian (sahib al-akhbar), his narrations with chains are very few.

    he has narrated from ja'afar ibn hilal from asim al-aHwal from abu uthman from usamah radiyallahu anhu that he said: 'the prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was carrying al-Hasan ibn ali and i, he was saying: 'O Allah, i love these two, ye love them too.'

    i say [ibn Hajar]: zubayr ibn bakkar, ahmed ibn zuhayr, harith ibn abu usamah have narrated from him.

    ahmed ibn abu khaythamah said:
    “my father, muşáb az-zubayrī and yaĥyā ibn maýīn were sitting outside muşáb’s door, when a man in handsome clothes riding a sprightly donkey came along. yaĥyā spoke to him and said: ‘whither o abu’l ĥasan?’ he replied: ‘toward this honorable thing which fills my pocket: silver and gold [dirham, dinār], going to is-ĥāq ibn ibrāhīm al-mūşalī.’ when he went away, yaĥyā said: ‘trustworthy, trustworthy, trustworthy!’ [thiqah, thiqah, thiqah]. i asked my father, ‘who is he talking about?’ he replied: ‘this al-madāyinī [who just passed by]’.
    al-madayini passed away in 224 or 225 and he was 93 years old.

    i say: i did not find him in ibn Hibban's 'thiqat' even though he fulfils his [ibn Hibban's] conditions.

    abu qilabah said: i narrated a hadith to abu asim an-nabil and he asked: 'you narrate it from whom?', i replied: 'it does not have a chain, but abu'l Hasan al-madayini narrated this to me.' he said: 'sub'HanAllah! abu'l Hasan is an authority himself' [sub'HanAllah, abu'l Hasan isnad]

    abu ja'afar at-Tabari said: 'he was a great scholar who knew the history of the ages [ayyam an-nas] and he was truthful in what he reported.

    ibn abu khaythamah said: ibn ma'yin said to me: 'write from madayini' [aH: the text adds kutubih and i assume, he meant write from al-madayini's books; if it is katabah, it means he wrote from it. Allah ta'ala knows best]

    al-Harith ibn abu usamah mentioned that al-madayini fasted for 30 years before he died, and he was about a hundred years old [when he died]. when he was asked on his death bed, 'what do you desire?' he replied: 'i desire to live'.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2009
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is a difference between history and hadith. and ibn ádī has even categorized some of the greatest scholars as weak: try imam abu Hanifah, if you like.

    there is something known as 'the whole picture' which people like you will easily miss it or adamantly close your eyes from seeing it. if you mature, you will probably learn to see it, but if you choose to remain juvenile, that is your choice.

    so tomorrow, if i write a positive note on ibn adi, don't come knocking that how can i speak positively about someone who castigated imam abu hanifah. may Allah forgive them [elder scholars] for their small mistakes.

    all of these scholars are humans and they had their differences and we are far away from their times. short-sighted individuals see the whole world as a blur except that which is in front of their very noses.

    but we carry on. we criticize only those who have contradicted the fundamentals of religion and are against us in usul. as for other mistakes, we live with them.

    i could argue with you on what it means when they say 'laysa bi qawiyy', but why bother? as if you would understand...

    indeed, he is the same. the author of 'siyar a'alam an-nubala'. he had a bias against the ash'aris and sufis [i daresay he was inimical to sufis], and his siyar is tilted against them - but that is no reason to throw away the baby with the bathwater. may Allah forgive him and have mercy upon him.

    are you saying that your shaykh has never committed any mistake and that everything he says is irrefutable? or that every reference he makes are rigorously authenticated and there is no question of any of his references being off the mark? i am not disrespecting your shaykh, but just pointing out that why the hypocrisy?

    our elders were also human and they were prone to mistakes - not as much as we are, but yes. the vulnerability was there.

    intelligent people can identify dubitable arguments. for example, dhahabi added hearsay when criticizing imam al-ghazali which i have pointed out in a thread long ago - which the yanaabi crew used to malign imam al-ghazali.

    the-person-who-calls-himself-muhammadi (i shall be changing all these names during the weekend, inshaAllah, for this reason. i hate to say: 'muhammadi is foolish'; or 'ahle sunnat is wrong', not that he is, but the sequence of words is awkward. so such names will be changed to avoid this unintended insult to the hallowed names/nisbah) once used the same flawed logic that imam ghazali disparaged imam abu hanifah raDiyallahu anhuma. that is what happens when simple minds cannot think except in a linear fashion. if some had their way, they would still be carping about sayyiduna umar raDiyallahu anhu wanting to hurt RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam or that imam al-ash'ari was a mu'tazili.

    i don't know where you learnt to form opinions, but it is prudent to accept imam subki's opinion. imam subki was dhahabi's student and spoke well of him - criticized him, yes. but he did not speak of him so lightly like you do. even alahazrat mentioned him favorably - and he was a scrupulous man.

    disrespecting elders will only take away the barakah. and respect does not mean that you should respect only your immediate shaykh and act about elders as if they were inferior to your immediate teachers.

    no matter how important today's scholars are, they are babies in front of mountains of ilm like al-zabidi and al-subki and al-suyuti and ibn asakir. the truly knowledgeable acknowledge this and are humble enough to admit it.

    you guys are the shadh-hunters and the kind imam ghazali advises to avoid [i add: avoid like the plague]. you can always find a shadh/anomalous opinion for ANYTHING on earth. hanging on to rare opinions as THE opinion is what i cannot digest.

    i am at a loss to explain to you the difference between apples and oranges and that both ought not to be compared. both of you have demonstrated hollow understanding and shallow research in the past - and i don't want you to reduce our forum to the banality and absurdity of the yanaabi forums. thank you.

    you are becoming worse than the salafis [at least they seem to have a baseline, but you keep moving the goalpost as you wish] - it is my sincere advice to you to doff your arrogance. you might browbeat a few people, but the knowledgeable can easily see the inconsistencies of your argument. i however, have plenty to do [like istighfar for my wretched soul and worry about correcting the crooked nafs] than argue with you.

    there, there, now don't wail: you can go and proclaim your 'victory' on that childish forum of yours.

    glad you corrected yourself, but why did you make the claim in the first place?

    i was only mentioning him in a biographical note. rest are your own inferences. it was not as if i became a muqallid of al-madayini overnight. may Allah cure you from this repulsive habit of insinuation.

    this is like ismayil dehlawi who apparently started doing raf'a yadayn and ostentatiously claimed that he was reviving a sunnah; when his uncle came to know of this, apparently he exclaimed: 'oh dear! we were thinking that ismayil had become a scholar. he does not even know the meaning of a simple hadith..' [or something similar to that]. we all know where the self-righteousness and arrogance of ismayil led him.

    al-iýādhu billah.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  3. Muhammadi

    Muhammadi Well-Known Member


    علي بن محمد بن عبد الله بن أبي سيف أبو الحسن المدائني مولى عبد الرحمن بن سمرة ليس بالقوي في الحديث وهو صاحب الأخبار [...] وأبو الحسن المدائني هو صاحب أخبار معروف بالأخبار وأقل ما له من الروايات المسندة

    [al-kamil fi dhu’afa ar-rijal of ibn ‘adi al-jurjani: volume 5, page 88]

    Not so whiter than white after all!
  4. Muhammadi

    Muhammadi Well-Known Member


    [FONT=&quot]علي بن محمد أبو الحسن المدائني الإخباري صاحب التصانيف ذكره بن عدي في الكامل فقال علي بن محمد بن عبد الله بن أبي سيف المدائني مولى عبد الرحمن بن سمرة وليس بالقوي في الحديث وهو صاحب الأخبار[/FONT]

    [lisan al-mizan of ibn hajar al-‘asqalani: tarjumah 689]
  5. Muhammadi

    Muhammadi Well-Known Member


    Is it the same zahabi who was ibn taimiyyah's student? [Idiot's guide: this is not a rhetorical/trick question.]
  6. Ubaid

    Ubaid Active Member

    al-madayini, only when it suits you.
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in a post we discussed imam Hasan's marriages, and i mentioned al-madayini cited by baladhuri and others as a prominent historian. the first question a discerning person might ask would be, is he just or just another historian?

    al-dhahabi writes in his siyar, 7:540, entry no.1786

    the scholar, the hafiž, the truthful abu'l ĥasan álī ibn muĥammad ibn ábdullāh ibn abu sayf al-madāyini, the historian [al-akhbāri]. he lived in baghdad and wrote many books. he had an amazing knowledge of biographies, events, battles, genealogy and the history of arabs. he was truthful in what he transmitted and had an elevated chain of transmission [áālī al-isnād].

    he was born in 132AH and passed away in 224AH.

    he attended the circles of qurrah ibn khālid who is his foremost teacher; shúbah, juwayriyyah ibn asmā’a, áwānah ibn al-ĥakam, ibn abu adh-dhiyb, mubārak ibn fuđālah, ĥammād ibn salamah, sallām ibn miskīn and others amongst their contemporaries. al-madayini flourished in başrah.

    those who narrate from him are:
    - khalīfah ibn khayyāţ
    - zubayr ibn bakkār
    - al-ĥārith ibn abu usāmah
    - aĥmed ibn abu khaythamah
    - al-ĥasan ibn álī ibn al-mutawakkil

    aĥmed ibn abū khaythamah said:
    “my father, muşáb az-zubayrī and yaĥyā ibn maýīn were sitting outside muşáb’s door, when a man in handsome clothes riding a sprightly donkey came along. yaĥyā spoke to him and said: ‘whither o abu’l ĥasan?’ he replied: ‘toward this honorable thing which fills my pocket: silver and gold [dirham, dinār], going to is-ĥāq ibn ibrāhīm al-mūşalī.’ when he went away, yaĥyā said: ‘trustworthy, trustworthy, trustworthy!’ [thiqah, thiqah, thiqah].

    i asked my father, ‘who is he talking about?’ he replied: ‘this al-madāyinī [who just passed by]’.
    aH: the incident above is remarkable because yaĥyā ibn mayin was implacable and unforgiving in his jarĥ/criticism of hadith narrators.
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