Covid vaccine

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by Khanah, Feb 13, 2021.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    IslamIsTheTruth likes this.
  2. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    interesting that the website says it’s a group of physicians family doctors, over 100 nurses bla-bla-bla who have signed it but there are no names mentioned as to who these brilliant minds are, as they want to "remain anonymous" since the "Medical and Nursing Licensing Bodies and Health Authorities have been persecuting physicians and nurses for speaking the truth." (wow, this is a serious accusation! I did not know Canada was a dictatorship!).

    If these so called professionals are that concerned about speaking the "truth", then they should put their names on the website as to who they are for what they are saying to gain any credibility, otherwise they are just hypocrites claiming to be concerned but not taking any responsibility for it. Even I can create a website and post a whole load of well designed information on it that nobody can trace back to me and say it’s from a group of top world leading scientist, physicians etc.

    They also only name 5 academics who have endorsed their "facts" in the whole pool of academics in the world. Um…

    It is interesting that they also have a cop-out in the form of a disclaimer:

    "Do not make any decisions based on the information contained or presented on this website without consulting an appropriate professional."
    "Canadian Covid Care Alliance (CCCA) is not responsible for any errors or omissions, or for the results obtained from the use of this information. All information in this site is provided “as is,” with no guarantee of completeness, accuracy, timeliness or of the results obtained from the use of this information, and without warranty of any kind, express or implied, as to the fitness for any particular purpose."

    Also their "facts" section about why your child should not get vaccinated is full of logical fallacies:

    "Your child is 10 times more likely to die of a motor vehicle accident than COVID-19; and 2-3 times more likely to die from drowning than from COVID-19" - so?? Doesn't mean that the covid vaccine should not be administered or that it is not effective. Also, how are they comparing the two? Which data are they using to make that comparison? Unclear from the website.

    "Fully vaccinated children can transmit COVID-19 and infect others as well as unvaccinated children" - the point of having the vaccine is that your symptoms are mild (if any) should you get infected with Covid and that you don't end up overwhelming the health care system.

    What kind of silly conclusion is that? You've also still not explained why you are following outlier opinions when it comes to the vaccine. And what is your proof that it brings more harm than benefits on a micro and macro level? Please don’t give me silly reasons like big pharma is making loads of money.
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    "anti-vaxxer" label wasn't specifically for you, although you are poorly informed about the context in which Covid vaccines were developed (desperate times requiring by-passing few protocols). Your arguments are uneducated.

    Covid vaccines were never meant to be "once-taken, forget-it" dose. Fair play to pharma cos (who may have their own interests to serve in promoting multiple doses) who have been from the outset openly communicating the need for multiple, frequently repeat doses. Did you miss this fact or did you assume that one dose will suffice for life?

    For several years now, common flu jab has anyway been administered at least once a year to vulnerable population. Why are you so surprised at the need for booster? Especially since coronavirus has long been known to frequently mutate.

    You're welcome to hold on to your views.
    Surati likes this.
  4. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    Whilst it is reasonable to wonder about the speed that the vaccines were improved, we shouldn't act as if there aren't explanations for this. For example:

    Having read the above and other articles regarding the same issue, the explanations seem reasonable.

    Additionally, the real world data on vaccine efficacy also appears to bear out the fact that the vaccines are helping, despite not having 100% effectiveness. However, what medicine is 100% effective anyway? It's always a matter of probability. Same with side effects.
  5. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Funny how people who question the covid vaccine are branded 'anti vaxxers' in its entirety.
    You don't become 'anti vax' by questioning one vaccine.
    It seems to me that those who have taken the covid vaccine (more boosters to come :)) are somewhat regretting it and are not 100% comfortable, hence you see the labelling of others as 'conspiracy theorists' 'anti vaxxers' 'paranoid' etc etc
  6. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    IslamIsTheTruth likes this.
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    So-called independent-minded people, who proudly profess to not towing the mainstream hoi-polloi, are themselves part of "group think" (an echo chamber of conspiracy theorists, whatsapp chat-groups, dark-web forums).

    It's wise to be a sceptic, but lunatic to be on fringe.
    Surati likes this.
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    many of those who talk about tawakkul without vaccine, have no space for tawakkul in using vaccine.
    Khanah and Umar99 like this.
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Ivermectin & hydroxy chloroquine are not preventive, but "at best" only curative. Vaccines are not meant to be curative (i.e. pumping vaccine after contracting Covid isn't going to help and even most ardent vaxxers don't claim so) but preventive (i.e. stop contracting Covid or reduce the adverse impact of Covid).

    As the age-old adage goes, prevention is better than cure!

    Given the nature of Covid transmission, the role of vaccines can't be assumed by drugs and treatment plans (and doctors have by now developed a menu of treatment, with or without contentious ivermectin etc.). Yes, if Covid were less fatal/virulent, then "herd immunity" would have made vaccines less relevant. But, low-cost herd immunity strategy didn't work in most countries. Thence, began the race for vaccine.

    Sadly, most laymen conflate these basic principles of cure/prevention.


    Would I surrender my conscience to be jabbed by a dubious/haram ingredient? No. At least in disclosure, some (not all) vaccines have nothing objectionable (even though effectiveness is questionable).

    Would I want to be in the front of queue to be jabbed? No, and I have been advocating this same line on this forum for several months. Now that we have waited and watched, vaccines appear to be mostly (but not 100%) safe and somewhat effective.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I share the same sentiments in your post. Regardless of the origins of covid, and regardless of the capitalistic interests of big pharma, the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the vaccine should work.

    Even if covid was let lose by the powers that be, they can't afford to flood the market with lousy treatment and prevention methods, or else risking/getting the disease is in fact a safer bet than the alleged treatment/prevention.

    I do have my reservations on banning ivermectin (as well as hydroxy chloroquine) for some capitalistic pursuits. Pharmacists have told me doctors do prescribe it at least in India and Egypt.

    There certainly are vested interests by politicians and capitalists, apparently since the pandemic/plandemic began, the world's middle and lower classes have suffered accumulated losses of some 4 trillion dollars, which apparently has been the gain of the world's richest few billionaires and corporations. But i don't think it's as simple as just them handing out a manmade disease and then fake treatments and vaccines.

    That said, it seems according to whatsapp and telegram unis, that a bizarre number of fit 20 and 30 something sports people and footballers have had cardiac arrests in the last 6 months. Can't vouch for the accuracy of it though.
  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    No point in getting into conversation. My point is who cares if the protocols were not followed. Ends justify the means.

    For a vaccine to be developed in the midst of "raging" pandemic, protocols needed to be short-circuited; otherwise body count would likely have been far higher. That desperate times call for desperate measures is a no-brainer. If it requires protocols be circumvented, so be it. It would have been stupidly rigid and senseless to follow the usual course of rigorous protocols in the face of crisis of this magnitude.

    Without getting into the origins of Covid-19 (whether man-made, lab accident or deliberate action of state agents/individuals), there's no denying the fact that it did cause havoc (and anybody who pretends that Covid was just a flu or red-herring is out-of-mind). Has the vaccine stemmed pandemic? On the balance of evidence, it does appear to have worked to an extent (even if the actual efficacy or level of protection is far lower than that being publicly claimed). It's possible that amongst the menu of vaccines, few are actually duds (and merely cruising in the slipstream of some more successful/effective vaccines). Could drugs or treatment alone have controlled deaths? May be; but infection level could only have been controlled through vaccines.

    As long as the vaccine hasn't killed more than it has saved/protected, you have give it some credit. You only need to compare the casualties wrt Spanish flu of 1918-20. Or may be pandemic just ran its course and would have petered out anyway? Whatever be the case, there's no harm in acknowledging that lives are bit safer now than that in spring of 2020.

    Yes, governments have been acting bizarrely, unreasonably and "unscientifically" in imposing (or not imposing as in the case of Brazil etc.) arbitrary restrictions on public life. Same governments have been mismanaging, misleading, misinforming on vaccine administration. That, I believe, is a policy failure rather than failure of medical experts.

    I must admit that I too was skeptical at start that vaccines (which came to market by-passing protocols) would work. But it seems, on current evidence, that they have. So all these die-hard protocol-sticklers look silly in retrospect.

    If it were not for vaccines (from anti- small-pox to polio to Ebola), we humans would have been in the worst place. Anti-vaxxers can take a hike!
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021
  12. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    What conspiracy theory? I haven't given you any theories.
    You just admitted standard protocols were not followed, end of conversation.
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Why do you think vaccine was expedited? Why were standard protocols short-circuited?
    Can you (@IslamIsTheTruth) hazard a guess? I don't happily drink kool-aid, but beyond a point conspiracy theories lose relevance.
  14. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Whatcha talkin bout Willis?
    The covid vaccine was expedited through the testing phase. This is a fact!
    Like I said, we haven't seen such a protocol like this before.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  16. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Is it? What’s your evidence?
    Sounds more like conspiracy theory bordering on paranoia to me.

    It's very hypocritical to hold this stance when it comes to mainstream medical knowledge, when you would deem it inappropriate and lambast any lay person who attempts to question the mainstream Sunni narrative. Have some respect and consistency in your way of thinking.

    Fyi many great scholars had outlier opinions; if your logic is sound then we should then start following these opinions too.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
  17. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    Does one have to be to question the mainstream narrative, or something that's glaringly obvious?
    I can point you in the direction of many medical professionals who are opposed to the covid protocol and the vaccine itself.
    You will find scores of them the world over opposing this.
    Get ready for you booster, Saudi has also made it mandatory now. You will end up with more holes than Swiss cheese.
  18. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Are you a medical doctor or a scientist by any chance?
  19. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    But they still had restrictions around the haram when it was a free for all in Riyadh.
    Regarding the other vaccines, they are not comparable to the covid vaccine. A 'vaccine' that pretty much skipped the stringent testing phase, which usually takes years. Plus all the other protocols in place for covid makes anyone with some common sense question what the real agenda is.
  20. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Because of Covid, adults had to be vaccinated to attend the Riyadh festivals - says so on their website.

    I was referring to other mandatory vaccinations for Hajj not necessarily Covid.

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