Yes, I found some good responses in another refutation: Aftab-e-Hidayat Ba Jawab e Rah-e-Hidayat by Mufti Ghulam Nasiruddin Siyalwi. It has addressed some of the quotations about the absence of kasb/ikhtiyar in mujizat. Sarfaraz Safdar has a lot of other ludicrous takes as well in his polemical works on this subject. A few years back, I wrote a small critique (here) of his take on the issue of istiqlal, kasb, fauq al asbab etc. He writes: "Except human actions (normal actions which are tahtal asbab), since human beings have independent (mustaqil) and inherent (Bi-Dhaat) power in these matters, though this power and choice (ikhtiyar) is gifted by Allah.” (Izalat al-Rayb, p.34)
this a deception by deobandis, sarfarz khan safdar deobandi wrote at length on this issue and hassin uddin shah, the head of all tafzilis now, wrote an excellent refutation of him. I liked his book very much and at that time his tafziliyyat was not known, but the book is, no doubt, an excellent work on the refutation of deobanidies on this issue. hadiyaatul ahbab fi tasarrufati ma fauqa'l asbaab
@abu Hasan What if someone accepts that all actions are created by Allah, however, what differentiates a Mujizat/Karamat from normal actions (like walking) being under the (majazi) qudrah of a person is that Kasb and ikhtiyar are not present in the former (Mujizat/karamat)? What would your response be to this claim and how does this affect the issue of validity of istighatha?
the little snippet from baqillani that one of the deobandits quoted on twitter is a just a repeat of deobandi shamelessness. anything a deobandi quotes is automatically suspect - they have been repeatedly caught out cheating, slandering, distorting - but hazarat ki Hayaa! they continue to peddle lies. whenever a deobandi quotes something, go to the source and check. la Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. so what exactly does it prove? looks like all morons go to deoband - or once you go into deoband you come out as a thick-headed moron with multiple coats of stupidity, and stripes of audacity. ---- when did we say that awliya or anbiya have power OTHER than that given by Allah ta'ala? everything we claim of tasarruf or in istighatha and istimdad is the help of Allah, the Grant of Allah - but via a means - and those means are awliya and anbiya. if they try to separate miracles - mujizat/karamat - as only in the power of Allah and not in the power of abd: do the deobandis now believe like the qadariyyah that other actions are their own creation? --- in fact, all of these quotes actually support the sunni position. when we sometimes say awliya or anbiya do this or that - it is actually by the power granted by Allah. 1. karamat = due to the Power of Allah 2. if i say: [by karamat] of shaykh abdul qadir jilani, i was saved in a disaster 3. being saved in a disaster was due to the Power of Allah where is the shirk? we never equated awliya or anbiya with Allah, nor claimed - al-iyadhu billah - that they have any power other than that granted by Allah. awliya and anbiya are all created by Allah, His noble slaves and anything they can do is only by His Permission, and governed by His Will and Power. as for attribution TOWARDS sayyiduna ghawth - the qur'anic verses about mujizah [not verbatim]: "i revive the dead by the leave of Allah" "i will give you a son" are all majaz. meaning i "give" by the power of Allah. what exactly is their problem here?
They quote: “Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Tayyib al-Baqillani al-Maliki (d. 403 AH) writes, “The meaning of our statement that the Qur’an is inimitable (mu’jiz), as per our principles, is that people are not able to produce anything like it. It has been established that it is not correct to include the miracle proving the truthfulness of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) under the ability of people. Rather, Allah Almighty alone has power over it … and so is the case with the miracles of all the Prophets (i.e., they are beyond human ability).” (I‘jaz al-Qu’ran, from Al-Itqan, 2:186)” Imam al-Ghazali (d. 505H) writes, “The reason a miracle attests to the truthfulness of prophets is that everything which human beings cannot produce [its similitude] must be the work of Allah. Whenever this is linked to a Prophet’s challenge, it is as if Allah Most High has said: ‘You are true.’[2].” (Ihya ‘Ulum al-Din, 1:97) ‘Allamah ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Aqbaras al-Shafi‘i al-Misri (d. 862 AH) writes, “The theologians (mutakallimun) say that miracles are exclusively from the action of Allah Amighty and they are not included under the power (qudrah) of humans.” (Fath al-Safa’ sharh al-Shifa’, from Hidayat al-Murtab, p.20; Fatawa Rashidiyyah, p.144) ‘Allamah Ahmad ibn ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Rumi (d. 1041H) writes in his brilliant book Majalis al-Abrar wa Masalik al-Akhyar, “Amu‘jizah is actually from amongst the actions of Allah, out of the norm, which he manifests at the hands of His messenger.” (Majalis al-Abrar, p.43) He writes in another place, “Whatever appears at their hands as extraordinary is created by Allah Most High and they have no power to invent it; since if they had power to invent it, they would have been able to repel from themselves the lighter matters as well such as disease, hunger, thirst, pain of heat and cold, the harms of the people and so on.” (Majalis al-Abrar, p.103) Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi (d. 606 AH) writes, “From the many verses that support the veracity of our previous statement is that when He (Exalted is He) related of the disbelievers that they requested overwhelming miracles (al-mu’jizat al-qahirah) from him in His (Exalted is He) statement: ‘They said [to the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace)]: We shall never believe in you unless you cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth…’ He (Exalted is He) then said: ‘Say [O Muhammad]: I proclaim the Purity of my Lord. I am nothing but human (bashr), a messenger.’ (Qur’an, 17:90-93). In other words, a person being a human with the quality of messengership implies he is perfect in his theoretical and practical faculties, and is able to treat [other human beings] who are deficient in these two faculties; but it is not necessary in acquiring this quality [of messengership] that he has the ability to [bring about] the conditions [i.e.mu‘jizat] which you request from him.” (Matalib ‘Aliyyah) ‘Allamah ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Khaldun (d. 808 AH) states, “One of the signs [of the prophets] is that they work wonders which attest to their truthfulness. ‘Wonders’ are actions, the likes of which are impossible for human beings to achieve. They are, therefore, called ‘miracles’ (mu’jizat). They are not within the ability of men, but beyond their powers. There is a difference of opinion as to how they occur and as to how they prove the truthfulness of the prophets. Speculative theologians (mutakallimun) base themselves on the doctrine of the ‘voluntary agent’ and say that miracles occur through the power of Allah, and not through the action of the prophet. The Mu‘tazilah maintain that human actions proceed from man himself, but still miracles do not belong to the type of actions that human beings perform. According to all schools, the prophet’s place in the performance of miracles is confined to the ‘advance challenge’ (tahaddi) that he offers by divine permission. That is, the prophet uses the miracles before they occur as proof of the truth of his claims. They therefore take the place of an explicit statement from Allah to the effect that a particular prophet is truthful.” (Muqaddimah Ibn Khaldun, p.93) Shaykh Shah ‘Abd al-Haq Muhaddith Dahlawi (d. 1052 AH) writes, “A mu‘jizah is not an act of a prophet, rather an act of Allah Most High which He manifests at the hands of a prophet. Contrary to other actions, which are created by Allah and the acquisition (kasb) is by the servant; in miracles the acquisition (kasb) too is not from the servant.” (Madarij al-Nubuwwah, 2:116) And he writes in another place, “Miracles (mu‘jizat) are the actions of Allah Most High that appear at the hands of the slave for verification of his truthfulness and honor. Miracles are not the actions of the slave such that they appear with his intention and choice like his other chosen actions (af‘al ikhtiyariyyah).” (Tarjamah Futuh al-Ghayb, p.27)” I have written responses which i will dm if one wants
Deobandis quote Shah Abd al-Haq Dehlwi rahmatullahi alayh: چه معجزه وكرامت فعل خدا است كه ظاهر مے گردو بردست بنده بجبهت تصديق وتكريم وے نه فعل بنده است كه صادر ميگرددبقصد واختيار اومثل سائر افعال چنانچه فرموده اندوحال آنكه آن خرق عادت فعل وتصرف خدااست He translates this as: “Mujiza and karamat are an act of Allah that happens at the hands of a banda [human] for his confirmation [ratification] and honor. Mujiza and karamat are not an act of the creation [human] that it should happen with their intent and control [free will] like other acts that are under his control and will like [eating and drinking], etc. Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jailani mentions that kharq-e-adat and tasarruf are an act of Allah that happens [emanate] at the hand of creation.” However, he fails to realize that what is meant here is bi dhat, bil istiqlal. The muj`iza of the Awliya do not happen bi dhat but are the ata` of Allah. The tasarruf of the Awliya is not bil istiqlal but bil ata` A simillar trick is used by Sa`ad when he quotes Imam al-Baqillani: Imam al-Mutakallimeen Qadi Abu Bakar Baqalani [r.h/d.403H] defined mujiza as: فصل فى حقيقة المعجزه معنى قولنا ان القران معجز على اصولنا انه لا يقدر العباد عليه وقد ثبت ان المعجز الدال على صدق النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم لا يصح دخوله تحت قدره العباد وانما ينفرد الله تعالى بلقدرة عليه ولا يجوزان يعجز العباد عما تستحيل قدرتهم عليه٠ وكذالك معجزات سا ئر الانبيا على هذا “Chapter regarding the reality of miracles [mujiza]: The meaning of our saying that Quran is a miracle is according to our principles that creation is not capable of it and it has been shown that miracle shows the truthfulness of our Nabi [“alayhi as salatu wa salam] and it’s not correct to say that the creation has any power over it, rather it’s the uniqe [characteristic] of Allah that He only has power over it. And it’s not permissible [to say] for the people that they have power over it [miracle]… And this is the case with mujizaat of all the Prophets [that miracles are not under their qudrah].” They use this same trick on many other ibarats such as this ibarat from Shah Abd al-Haq which they cite: قال المتكلمون وتختص المعجزه بكونها فعل اللّه تعالى وليست داخلة تحت قدرة البشر” “Mutakallimeen have mentioned that it is a characteristic of a miracle that is an act of Allah and does not fall under the qudrah of humans.” Note however how Imam al-Razi affirms the tasarruf and qudrah of the Awliya given by Allah in Tafsir al-Kabir: يُنَزّلُ ٱلْمَلَـٰئِكَةَ بِٱلْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ } [النمل: 20] وقال عليه السلام: ” أبيت عند ربي يطعمني ويسقيني ” ولهذا المعنى نرى أن كل من كان أكثر علماً بأحوال عالم الغيب كان أقوى قلباً وأقل ضعفاً ولهذا قال علي بن أبي طالب كرم الله وجهه: والله ما قلعت باب خيبر بقوة جسدانية ولكن بقوة ربانية. وذلك لأن علياً كرم الله وجهه في ذلك الوقت انقطع نظره عن عالم الأجساد وأشرقت الملائكة بأنوار عالم الكبرياء فتقوى روحه وتشبه بجواهر الأرواح الملكية وتلألأت فيه أضواء عالم القدس والعظمة فلا جرم حصل له من القدرة ما قدر بها على ما لم يقدر عليه غيره وكذلك العبد إذا واظب على الطاعات بلغ إلى المقام الذي يقول الله كنت له سمعاً وبصراً فإذا صار نور جلال الله سمعاً له سمع القريب والبعيد وإذا صار ذلك النور بصراً له رأى القريب والبعيد وإذا صار ذلك النور يداً له قدر على التصرف في الصعب والسهل والبعيد والقريب Similarly they quote `Allamah Dawani: ولها سبعة شروط الاول ان يكون فعل الله And here they quote Qadi Iyad: “Qadi Iyad Maliki [r.h] in Shifa: اعلم اّن معنى تسمية ماجائت به الانبياء معجزة هوان الخلق عجز
W/salam [Disclaimer: I have noticed that different Deobandi scholars have different positions on istighatha (like is often the case with Deobandis, as AH said, "Deobandis have fatwas for all seasons"). Those details are a little out of scope of the thread. However, acceptance of karamah and mujizat is a common underlying theme across those positions; and hence resolving this issue is helpful, irrespective of which position is held by a Deobandi] Background: When Allama Arshad ul Qadri sahab wrote Zalzala and highlighted that the Deobandi books are riddled with stories of their aqabir having knowledge of unseen and exercising tasarruf, something which are regarded as shirk and kufr in relation with the Anbiya and Awliya by the Deobandis, it really did send tremors across the Deo folds, appealing to the their awaam and even some of their scholars. About 6 books were written in its refutation which Allama sahab refuted through a single book. "Barelwi Fitna ka naya roop: Zalzala ka postmortem" was written by Ml. Arif Sambhali who's the leading pupil of the famous Deobandi polemicist Manzur Nu'mani. It has been my experience after reading the rudud, jawab and jawab dar jawab from both sides that often the parties agree of most of the issues, but (esp. the deobandi side) either strawman the opponents position, and continue debating semantics (ikhtilaf lafzi). There is sometimes very little disagreement and if we can identify that bottleneck, there is a possibility of resolving the ikhtilaf on issues like ilm al-ghayb, istighatha etc. If you clear the polemics off the strawman arguments and talking over each other, you can arrive at the following flow of the argumentation and the impasse on this particular issue: Deobandis like Ismail, Gangohi and others said that establishing the power of tasarruf for a creation is shirk Barelwis said that your own elders have stories that establish tasarruf for them Deobandis say that what the consider Kufr and shirk is Kun Fayakuni tasarruf (general ability to do anything, without any sabab). Deobandis do believe in (specific) Karamah and Mujizat. The latter two are the actions of Allah and appear at the hands of the creation. Barelwis will highlight that they also believe that every action is created by Allah. They also consider the Anbiya and Awliya as waseela in this scenario. Deobandis may respond that Mujizat and Karamat are not ikhtiyari, unlike the usual aadi/habitual acts of creation (I think IT also leans towards this) and can only happen when Allah wills. Hence, they do not posses the qudrah to help you. Both parties can seem to find a common ground if they can resolve the above bottleneck and establish whether Allah will bring out the effect of a miracle whenever a wali does qasad (like happens in our aadi/habitual matters) of anything, in general, (like giving a child, rain etc.) OR the Deobandi position that a miracle will only happen in specific cases and is outside of the control / ikhtiyar of a wali Please see the following scans from the aforementioned book "Barelwi Fitna ka naya roop": 1) Deobandi position: Wahi and Ilham are the sources of khabar of ghayb and they are not in the ikhtiyar of Anbiya and Awliya 2) Deobandi position: Mujizat and Karamat are the actions of Allah alone and only in His Qudrah and ikhtiyar Of course, the issue can be dealt from other angles as well (esp. if you're debating whether it's shirk or not). However, I feel that the above is the crux of the matter if you're aiming to establish tasarruf and ilm al-ghayb, and not only proving that the belief in it is not shirk.
Salam Continuing from this post in the Twitter thread by @Ibn Rida Safdar can you please post the proofs for this claim from the deobandi side? That a mu'jizah is not attributed to the Prophets (صل الله عليه وسلم) - can only be attributed to Allah ta'ala? جزاك الله خيرا
