Difference Between Ash'ari & Maturidis

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Unbeknown, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    kyuN luN bakht-e-khuftah se waam koi khwab-e-khush
    unke karam se gaalib sawera hone ko hai
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    luN waam bakht-e-khuftah se yak khwab-e-khush, walay
    ghalib yeh khawf hai ke kahaN se adaa karuN
     
  3. izz al-Din

    izz al-Din Well-Known Member

    scenery5.png Salam e masnun

    "Al Maturidi said : Creating (takwin) is from the eternal attributes of Allāh, he is uncreated.....[no translation]"


    Any brother, can mention, an aqidah text, that explains "Creating" ?
    That, Allah Azza wa Jall, has, always been Creating. I read this somewhere, but, cannot remember the reference.

    Wasalam

     
  4. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    As Salāmu ʿAlaykum Wa Raḥmatullāhi Wa Barakatu everyone,

    Mawlana Abu Hasan, would you be so kind as to explain the following in terms a layperson could understand?
    "The 1st :

    Al Maturidi said : Creating (takwin) is from the eternal attributes of Allāh, he is uncreated.....[no translation]
    Al Ash'ari : Creating is not an eternal attribute [it is an attribute of action, is not eternal and enters into existence]
    "

    My questions are:

    1. Do the Asharis believe that one of the attributes of Allah (Takwin) comes into existence, and therefore created?
    2. If the answer to 1 is yes, then how can someone believe that an Attribute of Allah is created and contingent?

    Jazak Allah Khair
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    can you please direct me to those references.
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as for the answer itself: vaguely relevant and mainly incoherent; and eventually self-contradictory. i find this answer irritatingly naive. interestingly, it looks like the deobandi style of answering everything else except the question that is asked.

    he calls the advice 'learn your aqidah' as a foremost bidah in our time! as if aqidah at-TaHawiyyah is a one-line book. and contradictory when recommends al-ghazali's qawayid al-aqayid which is more complex than many simpler ashari/maturidi texts!

    ali al-qari in the minaH ar-RawD al-azhar []:
    said imam al-a'azam, the foremost imam, the prominent, the gallant, the foremost leader of the nation, abu Hanifah al-kufi raHimahullah in his book he named Al-Fiqh al-Akbar; he indicates by the name 'the greatest knowledge' that it is necessary for one to give it the most attention because it is the basis of faith [madar al-iman] and the foundation for validity of deeds [mabna siHHatu'l arkaan] and the true meaning of deepest piety [ghayatu'l iHsan] and the farthest reach of gnosis [nihayatu'l irfan] rests on [this knowledge]
    al-ghazali in qawayid al-`aqayid [second section]:
    know that what we have said in the description of creed [tarjamati'l aqidah], it is necessary to make a child memorize it at the earliest; and as he grows, one should explain it little by little. so start with [making him/her] memorize and then make them comprehend. and then make them bear faith, and be certain in their faith and attest to its truth; this can be achieved without proofs for the child.
    ---
    the question was: "what are the main points of differences between the ashari and maturidi schools of aqidah; specifically how would i know to which school i adhere more closely?"

    ---
    it is necessary for every muslim to read books such as the first part of bahar-e-shariat, badyi'l amali, jawharah or aqidatu'l awam. even though they do not need to know the differences; nor worry about them. perhaps the only relevant point made by the speaker was about how the differences are peripheral.

    ---
    other things:
    imam al-ash'ari passed away in 324; al-maturidi in 333. the schools of kalam came as a response to the rise of heresies and heretical groups - who all claimed true islam [and not philosophers and non-muslims!] - mainly mu'tazilah, as taftazani explains in sharH al-aqayid.

    and these schools explained and codified the true teachings of prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2007
  7. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    In fact, I'm pretty sure now that he was an ash'ari as I've read as such in many places..... sidi abu Hasan can you confirm?

    Anyway, here is Sidi Hamza Karamali on the two schools and their differences:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S2pQ175vaRk


    [he doesn't actually talk about the differences but makes some good points regardless]
     
  8. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    I'd always thought of al-taftazani as an ash'ari which made his commentary on Nasafi's [maturidi] creed even more interesting!
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that should be: usually maturidis or by default, maturidis.

    imam al-kawthari is an exception, in spite of his fanatical devotion to imam al-a'azam abu Hanifah raDiyallahu `anhu and his madh'hab. his refutation of imam al-Haramayn al-juwayni's 'mughith al-khalq' [titled iHqaq al-Haqq] is testimony to that.

    --
    hanafis are usually maturidis because imam maturidi was a Hanafi. among the shafiyis a notable exception is imam sa'aduddin taftazani who is a maturidi even though he is a shafiyi in furu'. [but he also was well versed with Hanafi usul; he has written commentaries on Hanafi usul like sharH at-TalwiH]

    regardless, the differences among ash'aris and maturidis are insignificant [most scholars put the count at 13*]; they are more of an academic than of public interest. the commonfolk will be fine as long as they are taught any of these basic texts [in spite of minor differences.]

    - aqidah at-TaHawiyyah / sharH al-maydani
    - bad'yi'l amali / Daw al-ma'ali
    - `aqidatu'l `awaam / nur az-zalam
    - aqidah an-nasafiyah / sharH al-`aqayid
    - jawharatu't tawhid / tuHfatu'l murid

    Allah ta'ala knows best.

    * 6 of these differences are in choice of words; 7 others are in the interpretation of a creedal matter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  10. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    that is, strictly speaking, not true

    take Imam Zahid al-Kawthari, for example....
     
  11. interesting.....thanks :)
    of course, as hanafites we are automatically maturidis!
     
  12. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    as-salamu alaikum, an incomplete and incorrect translation..............

    رسالة في الاختلاف بين الأشاعرة والماتريدية
    للمحقق العلامة شيخ الإسلام ابن كمال باشا
    وقد طبعت هذه الرسالة باستانبول ضمن مجموعة فيها خمس رسائل، سنة 1304هـ، ص 57-59.
    قال الأستاذ: اعلم أن الشيخ أبا الحسن الأشعري إمام أهل السنة ومقدمهم، ثم الشيخ أبو منصور الماتريدي، وإن أصحاب الشافعيّ وأتباعه تابعون له، أي لأبي الحسن الأشعري في الأصول وللشافعيّ في الفروع. وإن أصحاب أبي حنيفة تابعون للشيخ أبو منصور الماتريدي في الأصول، ولأبي حنيفة في الفروع، كما أفادنا بعض مشايخنا رحمه الله تعالى، ولا نزاع بين الشيخين وأتباعه إلا في اثني عشر مسألة.
    الأولى: قال الماتريدي: التكوين صفة أزلية قائمة بذات الله تعالى كجميع صفاته، وهو غير المكوّن، ويتعلق بالمكوّن من العالم، وكل جزء منه بوقت وجوده كما أن إرادة الله تعالى أزلية يتعلق بالمرادات بوقت وجودها، وكذا قدرته تعالى الأزلية مع مقدوراتها.
    وقال الأشعريّ: إنها صفة حادثة غير قائمة بذات الله تعالى، وهي من الصفات الفعلية عنده لا من الصفات الأزلية، والصفات الفعلية كلها حادثة كالتكوين والإيجاد، ويتعلق وجود العالم بخطاب كن.
    المسألة الثانية
    قال الماتريدي: كلام الله تعالى ليس بمسموع، وإنما المسموع الدال عليه.
    وقال الأشعريّ: مسموع كما هو المشهور من حكاية موسى عليه السلام.
    قال ابن فورك: المسموع عند قراءة القارئ شيئين: صوت القارئ وكلام الله تعالى.
    وقال القاضي الباقلاني: كلام الله تعالى غير مسموع على العادة الجارية، ولكن يجوز أن يسمع الله تعالى من شاء من خلقه على خلاف قياس العادة من غير واسطة الحروف والصوت.
    قال أبو إسحاق الإسفرايني ومن تبعه: أن كلام الله تعالى غير مسموع أصلا، وهو اختيار الشيخ أبي منصور الماتريدي كذا في البداية.
    المسألة الثالثة
    قال الماتريدي: صانع العالم موصوف بالحكمة سواء كانت بمعنى العلم أو بمعنى الإحكام.
    وقال الأشعري: إن كانت بمعنى العلم فهي صفة أزلية قائمة بذات الله تعالى، وإن كانت بمعنى الإحكام فهي صفة حادثة من قبيل التكوين، لا يوصف ذات الباري بها.
    المسألة الرابعة
    قال الماتريدي: إن الله يريد بجميع الكائنات جوهرا أو عرضا طاعة أو معصية، إلا أن الطاعة تقع بمشيئة الله وإرادته وقضائه وقدرته ورضائه ومحبته وأمره، وإن المعصية تقع بمشيئة الله تعالى وإرادته وقضائه لا برضائه ومحبته وأمره.
    وقال الأشعريّ: إن رضاء الله تعالى ومحبته شامل بجميع الكائنات كإرادته.
    المسألة الخامسة
    تكليف ما لا يطاق ليس بجائز عند الماتريدي، وتحميل مالا يطاق عنده جائز، وكلاهما جائزان عند الأشعريّ
    المسألة السادسة
    قال الماتريدي: بعض الأحكام المتعلقة بالتكليف معلوم بالعقل، لأن العقل آلة يدرك بها حسن بعض الأشياء وقبحها، وبها يدرك وجوب الإيمان وشكر المنعم، وإن المعرف والموجب هو الله تعالى، لكن بواسطة العقل كما أن الرسول معروف الوجوب والموجب الحقيقي هو الله تعالى لكن بواسطة الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى قال: لا عذر لأحد في الجهل بخالقه، ألا يرى خلق السموات والأرض ؟! ولو لم يبعث رسولا، لوجب على الخلق معرفته بعقولهم.
    وقال الأشعري: لا يجب شيء ولا يحرم إلا بالشرع لا بالعقل، وإن كان للعقل أن يدرك حس بعض الأشياء، وعند الأشعريّ جميع الأحكام المتعلقة بالتكليف تلقاه بالسمع.
    المسألة السابعة
    قال الماتريدي: قد يسعد الشقيّ وقد يشقى السعيد.
    وقال الأشعريّ: لا اعتبار بالسعادة والشقاوة إلا عند الخاتمة والعاقبة.
    المسألة الثامنة
    العفو عن الكفر ليس بجائز.
    وقال الأشعريّ: يجوز عقلا لا سمعا.
    المسألة التاسعة
    قال الماتريدي: تخليد المؤمنين في النار، وتخليد الكافر في الجنة لا يجوز عقلا، ولا سمعا.
    وعند الأشعري: يجوز.
    المسألة العاشرة
    قال بعض الماتريدية: الاسم والمسمى واحد.
    وقال الأشعريّ: بالتغاير بينهما وبين التسمية، ومنهم من قسم الاسم إلى ثلاثة أقسام: قسم عينه، وقسم غيره، وقسم ليس بعينه ولا بغيره، والاتفاق على أن التسمية وغيرها وهي ما قامت بالمسمى، كذا بداية الكلام.
    المسألة الحادية عشر
    قال الماتريدي: الذكورة شرط في النبوة، حتى لا يجوز أن يكون الأنثى نبيا.
    وقال الأشعريّ: ليست الذكورة شرطا فيها، والأنوثة لا تنافيها، كذا في بداية الكلام.
    المسألة الثانية عشر
    قال الماتريدي: فعل العبد يسمى كسباً لا خلقاً، وفعل الحق يسمى خلقاً لا كسباً، والفعل يتناولهما.
    وقال الأشعري: الفعل عبارة عن الإيجاد حقيقة، وكسب العبد يسمى فعلاً بالمجاز، وقد تفرد القادر خلقاً وما لا يجوز تفرد القادر به كسباً.
    تمت الرسالة الشريفة لابن كمال باشا رحمه الله تعالى


    A treatise pertaining to the differences between the Ash'aris and Maturidis

    by Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Kamal Pasha

    This study was published in Istanbul amongst a collection of 5 studies in 1304 Hijrah.

    The shayikh said :

    Know that Abu al-Hassan Al Ash'ari is one of the major scholars of Ahl al-Sunna as is Sheikh Abu Mansur Al-Maturidi. Imam al Shafi'is followers follow Al-Ash'ari in regards to the fundamentals ('usul] and al Shafi'i in the branches (furu'); Imam Abu Hanifa's followers follow Al-Maturidi in regard to the fundamentals and follow Abu Hanifa in regard to the branches, as concluded by some of our scholars.

    And the two Imams are on agreement except on 12 issues.

    The 1st :

    Al Maturidi said : Creating (takwin) is from the eternal attributes of Allah, he is un created.....[no translation]
    Al Ash'ari : Creating is not an eternal attribute [it is an attribute of action, is not eternal and enters into existence]


    The 2nd :

    Al Maturidi : Allah's Speech (Kalam) cannot be heard [by ears]; what is heard is that which points to it
    Al Ash'ari : Allah's Speech can be heard as in Musa.

    Other scholars on this issue:

    Ibn Furak : when someone recites the Qur'an what we hear is the reciter voice and Allah's words
    Al Baqillani : Allah's Kalam is not heard but Allah can make whoever he wills hear it but not in a human fashion of hearing.
    Abu Ishaq Al Isfarini : Allah's Speech cannot be heard

    3rd issue :

    Al-Maturidi : The creator of the world is attributed with "Hikma" either it means "wisdom and knowledge" or "perfection in creating"
    Al Ash'ari : if it is about "wisdom and knowledge" then it is eternal and if it means "perfection in creating" then it is eventual " occur when Allah create" and so it shouldn't be attributed to Allah

    4th issue :

    Al Maturidi : our good deeds and bad deeds are controlled by Allah will...our good deeds occur according to His will, orders and love...while bad deeds occur according to His will, order but not love.

    Al Ash'ari : Allah's love includes all creatures as His will.

    5th issue :

    Al Maturidi : for a human to be ordered to do what he can't burden by Allah is not possible
    Al Ash'ari : it is possible

    6th issue :

    Al Maturidi : understanding and fitrah is what lead us to believe and fulfill obligations related to faith in God.so no one is execused for disbelieve in his creator

    Al Ash'ari : nothing is forbidden and nothing is obligatory unless Allah tell us in his holy book or through a prophet


    7th issue

    Al Maturidi: the sinner can be rewarded and the pious can be punished
    Al Ashaari : we only know who is really a sinner and who is really pious in the judgment day


    8th issue

    Al Maturidi : Forgiving disbelief (kufr) is not possible.
    Al Ash'ari : According to Hadith and Quran it is not possible but according to human reason it is possible.


    9th issue :

    Al Maturidi : Eternal hell for a believer and eternal heaven for a kaffir is not possible
    Al Ash'ari : It is possible.

    10th issue :

    Al Maturidi : the name and what this name refer to is the same
    Al Ash'ari : [no translation]

    11th issue :

    Al Maturidi : Manhood is a required attribute of prophethood.
    Al Ash'ari : no

    12th issue :
    [no translation]
     

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