Do asharis believe in imkan al-kadhib?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Sep 29, 2006.

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  1. :s1: i personally am of the opinion that this thread should be locked as the deobandis and their supporters seem to love milking this issue of imkan al kizb and giving it new meanings. and i think any post which deals with the issue should not be entertained simply because bro. obz has given the solution: go and read ala hazrat's work on it.
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alaHazrat's blessed risalah sub'Han as-subbuH covers all these and proves that it is wrong.

    the answer of guidinghelper is caluminous because the books of kalam make a differentiation between khilaf al-wa'ad and khilaf al-wa'eed - not club them together under one answer.

    anyway, if you seek truth, you must read alaHazrat's epistle; and if you choose to ignore it - then to you, your path and to us, ours. alaHazrat's epistle is full of references from classical books - not just a summary dismissal of such a grievous issue. quote us classical scholars, not the feeble justifications of pipsqueaks.

    when confronted, they either try to subvert or simply ignore the issue; or even worse begin attacking alaHazrat. alaHazrat said it in his risalah:

    'it seems that the deobandis and their followers have chosen to decide on one hadith all their lives:
    fa idha lam tastaHi faSna'a maa shiyt / if you have no shame, do whatever you want'

    ----
    al-iyadhu billah.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  3. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    aH: spam deleted

    faqir: as-salamu alaikum, I am sorry you considered my post to be "spam". actually, i had only posted a portion of it once in another related thread on your forum so I don't understand how you have arrived at this conclusion.

    shaikh buti, the scholars of the guidinghelper site, shaikh faraz may all be "pip squeaks" to you akhi al-karim but I am afraid i disagree. why don't you ask sh. GF Haddad if he considers sh. buti a "pip squeak" or what he thinks of shaikh Faraz?

    of course this is your "discussion" forum and you are free to delete as you please but i must say that it is sad to see such behaviour from yourself. i am more accustomed to this kind of deleting and banning on madkhali type salafi forums.

    anyway brothers, i think it is time for me to depart from your forums as it is clear that you do not tolerate anyone who does not hold exactly the same opinion as you on every issue. i have learned from you all and i thank you for your hosting me and my posts. i apologise if i have offended any of you.

    was-salamu alaikum
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2006
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    refuting the fasid aqidah that Allah sub'hanahu wa ta'ala can lie is as much important as refuting the anthropomorphists.
     
  5. faqir

    faqir Veteran

  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    jazakAllah khair. We would really be very grateful to you if you could translate some excerpts from subh'an as-subbuh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2006
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    with due respect to shaykh buTi, every classical ash'ari text clearly says that kidhb/kadhib is muHal for Allah ta'ala. it is obvious that anything that is muHal cannot be mumkin. apart from contemporary scholars, can anyone quote a classical `aqidah text that permits imkan al-kadhib?

    ---
    in another recent thread, we have seen fatwa from sunnipath that imkan al-kadhib is the chosen opinion. sunnipath and its constituents regularly advertise teaching jawharah at-tawHid; if this is what being taught, then it is prudent to warn people against it. in the Hashiyah of jawharah imam ibrahim bayjuri states [quoting baqillani and imam al-Haramayn]
    "wa'n naqSu `alayhi ta'ala muHal" / it is impossible to attribute Allah ta'ala with ANY flaw.
    everybody knows that lie or kadhib/kidhb is a flaw - `aqlan wa shar`an. we will see more from al-bayjuri shortly, inshaAllah.

    ----
    notice the sleight of hand by the deobandis where they state a valid difference khilaf wa`yeed or that Allah ta'ala can forgo his promise of punishment among the ash`aris and attribute possiblity of lying to Him, Exalted is He.

    for the uninitated, i quote Hashiyah al-bayjuri on jawharah:
    to renege on His promise [khulf fi'l wa'ad] is a flaw [naqS] and it is mandatory to believe that Allah ta'ala is free from it. this is unanimously agreed among both ash`aris and maturidis. [mutaffiqun `alayhi fi'l ashayirah wa'l maturidiyah]

    however, concerning foregoing the promise of punishment [al-wa`yid]; this is considered as possible among the ash`aris because such a foregoing is not a flaw but a favor and generosity which merits praise.

    so this is a valid difference which is clearly explained by alaHazrat in the fourth part of his exalted monograph, subHan as-subbuH. see here [select page 94 from the navigation box below, pg.404 in the book]

    what the deobandi does, is adds imkan al-kadhib as a corollary [furu'] of the latter principle [khulf al-wa`yid] which none of the ash`aris or maturidis allow. so the quote of taftazani and sharif jurjani from maqaSid and mawaqif is about the latter matter - not about imkan al-kadhib.

    infact, in both of these and every major treatise of kalam it is clearly written that: lying is impossible for Allah ta'ala' because it is precluded from his Power because it is a flaw and every flaw is precluded from His Power.

    notice here, that the deobandis claim themselves to be maturidis and there is no maturidi text that allows the latter [khilaf al-wa`yid] either.

    anyway, ibn arabi quoting an extrapolation from muhannad is not a proof; show us from maqaSid or sharH al-mawaqif that kadhib is considered mumkin/jayiz for Allah ta'ala.

    infact, in sharH al-maqaSid of taftazani it is clearly written:
    al-kadhib naqSun bi ittifaqi'l `uqala wa `ala Allahi muHal li ma fihi amaratu'l `ajz aw al-jahl aw al-`abath.

    falsehood is a flaw, according to every sensible person [or wise men] and this is impossible to attribute Allah ta'ala with because this necessitates impotenct or ignorance or futility. [sharH al-maqaSid vol.4/pg.158, `alam al-kutub]

    this is an important matter and no matter what degrees and what claims to ahlu's sunnah people make in this age, i sincerely advise my sunni brothers to beware and be aware: demand proof from classical works about this issue and not extrapolations of modern day people.

    SubHanAllah, and Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2007
    Nur al Anwar likes this.

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