Education - options for Muslims in Western societies

Discussion in 'Home Schooling' started by sunni_porter, Sep 24, 2023.

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  1. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    I went against my own advice on the basis of "something is better than nothing".
     
  2. Aurangzeb

    Aurangzeb Active Member

    Im not too pessimistic. With the proper training, the young can be a powerful force and a great representation for Islam in a largely Godless society. All children are impressionable, including those of the non Muslims. The school is far more of a free place to call to Islam via peer role models. Far more open than a workplace for example. But this type of tutelage is exhausting. Experience tells me well that a 4 year old is capable of rudimentary critical thinking and in practice this is effective with their peers and likely the teachers too once the frame of dialogue is understood and appropriate words used. Granted, the adults are a little ingrained in their views but there are effective methods for them too but one must know the system well and then have the necessary tact to skillfully navigate that system.

    As parents if you are not prepared to strive night and day in the proper instruction of your offspring, then I'd suggest letting those competent ones do so either in the West but ideally in the Muslim majority lands.

    If a child can teach another child the latest trending song, then a child can also teach another child Quran. Yes, a child who can 'sing' verses of the Grandest of Books from the age of 2, not 7, 8 and 9.
     
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  3. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Why not? One of the objectives of home schooling should be to prepare our kids to one day make hijrah and leave the West if they need to. Give/teach them the tools and abilities to do this successfully. This includes becoming fluent in Arabic if they one day migrate to an Arab land.
     
  4. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Largely, the ones I am aware of, send their children to the same public schools that we go to. I suggest the excuse of 'most of them are from back home and therefore they don't know the fitna of public schools to it's fullest degree' etc which some may put forward is not suitable- everyone more or less has some idea of at least most of the problems that exist in public school.

    Amongst the many problems:-

    - Mixing between the genders to an extent that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the child to avoid e.g. some classes have seating plans where you have no choice who to sit next to etc
    - Mixing with children with terrible adab/behaviour
    - Teachers making light of fisq/acknowledging it as normal behaviour e.g. if they make jokes about drinking alcohol, for example
    - Teachers imparting kufr ideologies to young, impressionable minds who don't have the ability to critique what they're hearing
    - Kids engaging in kufriyya activities such as nativity plays in primary school. Even those who don't participate in the play itself will be asked to practice in choir etc per my experience
    - Music class, art class, etc which can be haram depending on what goes on in there
    - Even something as simple as doing PE e.g. although changing rooms are not mixed gender, there are all sorts of problems re awrah being uncovered for both genders.

    And so many more- I could go on and on. How do some of the imams etc in the west deal with the above? Simple- they don't
     
  5. Taftazani

    Taftazani New Member

    Home schooling is the only way to go.
     
  6. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Interesting twitter thread from some brother on Islamic schools.

    Note: I don't know the person; skimming through his twitter timeline, he seems like a layman who likes Deos. But his comments in the thread in question are quite good.
     
  7. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    The popular social media Shaykhs, Imams, Mawlanas, Ustadhs living in the West with controversial antics - I wonder if there is a correlation between them and their schooling (i.e. did they go to public school).
     
  8. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    The Shaykhs, Imams, Mawlanas, Ustadhs living in the West - I wonder how they school their children.
     
  9. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    No, this is key.

    If you want to change the mindset of the community-at-large (i.e. importance of education and tarbiyah, educating them on the dangers of public schools, alternative options and how to go about it), then you need Imams and masaajid involved. Homeschooling parents need support as well as it can be overwhelming - this is a way of connecting with other like-minded parents and relieving some of the pressures (by sharing strategies and tactics, having the masjid run certain activities for the kids, etc.). Having individual parents reinvent the wheel (in terms of designing their homeschooling curriculum/strategy) is inefficient (as opposed to taking existing curriculums/strategies designed by Imams/professionals and then tweaking/customizing it).

    Is not an Imam's role to shepherd his community? Then how can schooling be overlooked? Daniel Haqiqatjou of MuslimSkeptic has devised a homeschooling curriculum which is available from his online institute (he charges a fee, but it is understandable).
     
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  10. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    The link shows page not found message but if you click the menu icon top right and click home it opens everything up for you.

    If you scroll down to very bottom on the error message page or after following above method you will find the our campuses link, clicking that will highlight their current setup for various countries.

    If the waiting list is anything like the ones for their madrasa system then it'll be very long, but then again that is a free madrasa system so it gets a lot of traffic whereas this will have set fees so footfall maybe less.
     
  11. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Have they opened further schools?

    As for the current schools open- I'm assuming there is a large waiting list for entrants? I think the link no longer works
     
  12. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I take your points- it is very convincing. I suppose it's just that I'm less optimistic regarding bad habits that you can learn from other children at the ages of 4-10 than you are. I feel I will need to read some books about child development and the like to see what the latest thinking is with respect to children developing personality traits, when this happens, etc and (when I get around to it), I'll report back. Ideally of course, homeschooling the whole way through would be great.

    Whilst I largely agree, I think there still needs to be significant involvement from the parents as well as some level of structure (although flexible). The benefit of homeschooling during these ages would be avoidance of fitna, as you mentioned, and the ability of the child to grasp higher level concepts that you would like to teach them. If someone was interested in taking a more classical approach to education and wanted the child to learn logic, rhetoric and the like (for edification of the mind rather than as something to help with GCSE qualifications)- then you can do that. Whereas if they're in high school, you can't exactly school them too much in these subjects when they return home especially as they should be focused on Islamic topics during that time instead.

    I think this is essentially out of the question. If we want to homeschool, we just need to take matters into our own hands.

    I think the overall purpose of learning arabic won't necessarily be to hear/speak it- rather, understanding of the written text is the most important aspect. Even when children learn foreign languages in school, they learn in order to pass exams as opposed to speaking.

    Whilst our reason for learning isn't to pass exams, they would be able to even with minimal speaking practice. Lots of people go through dars nizami and can read and write in arabic competently but can't understand it when spoken due to lack of practice- I don't think it's a big issue, lots of language learners have this problem. Usually they try and make up for it by watching videos in the target language and the like.


    It's all relative. Nothing is cheaper than public schooling and that was my reference point. No doubt, however, homeschooling for the right intention will bring barakah into the home and that's the important thing.
     
  13. barelwi

    barelwi New Member

    The same is partially true for some of our Islamic educational institutes. Cookie cutter courses with limited scope and Dars e Nizami syllabi without encouragement of extra reading, free thinking, imagination, critical analysis, etc lead to creating 'scholars' devoid of the proper skills needed to progress to the higher stages of scholarship.

    These courses should be the equivalent of the high school education / teen education listed below; meaning they should be a prerequisite equipping the students with the ability to then go on and read more books, study, specialise etc.

    It's more common nowadays that gaining the certificate for this prerequisite is the final stage of scholarship, creating Allamas and Muftis with unprecedented levels of lack of education.

    In the end, it comes down to this:
     
  14. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Some quick thoughts:

    If you are going to let kids attend Islamic school, I think it makes more sense to let them attend during primary years (ages 4-10 / junior kindergarten to grade 5). There is less risk involved. It's not like they learn complex things during this period, so risk of getting a poor education is low. Kids are mostly innocent throughout this period, so less risk of bad habits and character development occurring. I think a kid's need to socialize is stronger in this period as well, so that is fulfilled.

    Middle school years (ages 11-13; grades 6-8) I would be less inclined to send to Islamic school, but would allow it depending on the situation.

    High school/secondary school years (ages 14-17; grades 9-12) I would not send to school at all. This is where, as mawlana abu Hasan said below, "school will only cripple the mind, extinguish thinking and imagination". In fact, I think this begins in middle school years, but is not as bad. High school is a complete dumpster fire (had another word in mind but it may be a bit vulgar). You've got youth with hormones raging and the negative stuff (related to environment/character) in full swing. High school is unproductive for the majority of students that attend. The benefit of homeschooling in this period is that the student can homeschool on their own with minimal involvement needed from parents.

    A homeschooling supplement program needs to be provided by a local masjid/Imams. Something like twice a week where homeschooled kids and parents can get together, have some formal structured learning/activities (whether it be deeni or non-deeni) and socialization. Masaajid are empty during the working day anyway and are completely under-utilized. (priority shouldn't be to build masaajid in the West anyway; we should be building community centers with space to pray in congregation). An Imam should be hired to just simply research and come up with a homeschooling curriculum; ideally hire someone who specializes in education. This would also take some pressure off the parents.

    For non-arabs, I think arabic can only be taught starting in grade 9 (maybe grade 6, but later is better/easier). Your native language (other than English, e.g. Urdu), however, can be taught immediately (ages 3 and on). The reason for this is that the child has been hearing their native language since they were in their mother's womb; and have been using the language on a consistent basis for practical/real-life purposes. Whereas with arabic, a non-arab child is not familiar with the language and will not be using it on a practical/real-life basis, so it will be more of a struggle for them to pick it up or have any interest in it. Note: I am not talking about the Qur'an, of course. This might be something that a homeschooling supplement program may be able to address though - have weekly arabic only sessions where you can only speak arabic, forcing kids to use and learn common arabic phrases.

    Fyi: for Urdu speakers interested in teaching their kids Urdu, Dawat e Islami have some excellent textbooks used in their schools. See Dar-ul-Madinah International University Press - https://www.dmiup.com/

    Well it will be much cheaper than Islamic school. The latter have high fees. And with homeschooling, you can choose where you invest your money with respect to tutoring e.g. arabic, martial arts, skilled trade, etc.

    Sunni leadership is completely clueless about education.
     
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  15. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I'm personally super invested in homeschooling as a concept so would like to keep this thread alive. My random thoughts ahead:

    I believe homeschooling IN GENERAL is superior to Islamic schools for one very important reason- children corrupt other children. Now, the children at an Islamic school may very well be better behaved than their public school counterparts because their parents are more invested in their deen (for example). But I suspect many of them are still badly behaved, gossip, talk about what they watched on TV last night etc. In the very early formative years i.e. primary school years, I still believe homeschooling is superior. Once your kids have developed some character and you've inculcated certain patterns of behaviour within them- then maybe Islamic school during the secondary school years to give your mrs a break, eh?

    Obviously, homeschooling is the most difficult of all options. And lots of things have to be on point in order to make it work. But the potential reward is much greater. End of the day, I don't see the next Al Ghazali coming from a public school but I can see one from a homeschooled environment. That has got to be your aim.

    Some research needs to be done into how the various christian groups in america manage it because they've been doing it for decades (homeschooling is quite big over there) and by all accounts, home schooled kids there have better outcomes than their public school counterparts (i.e. better grades on average, less likely to commit crime, etc).

    I've encountered non Muslims in the UK who homeschool so if they can do it, why not us?

    Of course, this leads to the issue of who exactly does the homeschooling. The burden will naturally fall to the mother in most instances so she needs to be up to speed. Structure will also be very important and Islamic topics need to be integrated into the homeschooling experience as opposed to being separate e.g. tajweed as first lesson of the morning, modern standard arabic should be your language option for modern languages (kids can do a GCSE in this as opposed to french or german). If you can't teach certain subjects to the children yourself (for example, maybe you don't know arabic), then you could hire a personal tutor for that particular subject (I have a suspicion homeschooling won't be cheap). Tutor can teach via the internet so could get a cheaper option from Yemen, let's say.

    The above having been said, we need to build Islamic schools in the UK at a very fast rate because homeschooling probably isn't viable for the majority and I'm not sure how we can answer for sending our kids to public school on the Day of Judgement.
     
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  16. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Anyone with homeschooling experience willing to share the curriculum they used and how they designed the daily schedule for their child?
     
  17. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Or rather, Islamic concepts; how the mind works and how humans know and understand things (rational judgements, empiracal evidence, etc.); how Muslims view and understand this world; logic; how to form and assess an opinion; values and how we determine what is a good value to have and not have; etc.....basically how to think and encourage one to reflect

    ----

    What should also be taught is how this world works and the pros and cons of it - economically (monetary system), politically (governments, democracies, etc.), modern nations, globalization (consumerism), history, etc. - so that a young adult stepping into higher education / the workforce understands the world he or she is stepping into and how it operates, the good and bad of it, etc.
     
  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well I do not think that it is unwanted. I would very much like children to long for death and hereafter. After all, they've got an eternity to spend there. better desired than forced.

    "yuN bhi kisi din hamne, dunya se to jana hai"

    a good reply, imho, would be - good things have to be earned and it is not good to show impatience for the n'iam which is stored for the hereafter. Better spend your time thanking Allah subHanu wa ta'ala for the beautiful gardens and palaces he has prepared for you (note we are talking about kids here) and when He subhanu wa ta'ala calls you all you have to do is close your eyes and say labbaik.


    sorry if I misunderstood you and went off on a tangent. My point is that - we need to de-stigmatize death for our youth. It is not to be seen as a sad reality - not that all good things come to an end and so will life - but that all good things are yet to come and the more you send forward for that life the happier you will be there. and bliss there shan't end while the bliss and pain in this life ends.

    if someone's child longs for death - I'd congratulate them and commend them for their excellent parenting.
     
  19. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    What Islamic texts would you recommend should be a part of the student's curriculum and when (e.g. xyz should be taught in grade 1...)
     
  20. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    At the moment the only thing for pre-teens we have from a reliable sunni organisation is the Dar-ul-Madinah Pre-Primary & Primary Schools of Dawateislami who have established 40 campuses in various countries including the UK & USA. Dar-ul-Madinah Blackburn UK has successfully passed the Ofsted inspection and recently a licence from Californian State authorities has also been given to Dar-ul-Madinah Sacramento Campus in USA. Currently they have approximately 14,000 students studying in different campuses of Dar-ul-Madinah in various countries.

    Secondary schools are in the pipeline for the UK as far as I understand and colleagues & university are to follow down the line. Traditional education alongside islamic teachings will be the focus from pre-primary all the way to university In-sha-Allah.

    A Jamiah for sisters is also on the way very soon In-sha-Allah

    http://www.darulmadinah.net/pre-prim-primary/
     
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