Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Waqar786, Jan 2, 2021.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Waqar786 brother, we've all been through this excuse of some grand selfless maqsad behind some erratic nonsense activity. (Sounds like an indo-pak drama serial where you watch 26 episodes to finally see an unexpected anti-climax turning the whole story on it's head and revealing the realities of all characters)

    Let's get one thing straight - scholars are not Khidr 3alaihis Salam and we are not living in the times of Hazrat Musa 3alaihis Salam.

    In our Shari3at we are obligated to act on the apparent and leave the niyyahs to Allah.

    For all we know, a scholar or person who is acting 100% in accordance to sacred law, he might as well be doing riya. There are ahadith about the qaari and the scholar and the mujahid who will be thrown in hellfire because they did those things to show people.

    Again, for all we know, someone seeming to act contrary to maslaha might as well have some grand hikmah or maqsad behind it.

    What's our job? See everything in the light of the Shari3at and leave the rest to Allah.

    And what are we seeing? A public circus of scholars!

    And after putting up this circus, no one can seriously expect us to entertain some grand aims behind it.

    To be honest, I have no idea who Nabeel Afzal is, but I've heard all these theories of 'but he's acting on a grand aim which us non-walis can't comprehend' from many more shuyukhs' followers: Hamza Yusuf, Ali jifry, Keller, nazim qubrusi, gibril Haddad, and more. all these people, to those swayed by their charm, were/are supposedly acting on some grand and secret plan to help deen and ummah.

    If there is some elaborate grand hikmah on the anti-jalali side, please share it or tell Nabeel Afzal to share it publicly.

    Otherwise it's simply disingenuous and even evil to firstly set up a public circus and then tell the awam to keep shut because there's more to it than meets the eye.
  2. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I did not want to comment further. However, it is clear that we are not aware of the full facts and there are things going on in the background. Politics and a lot of egos involved.

    We can only pray that everything works itself out and Sunnis can become more united. Without access to the ground reality, I think it is just better to wait.

    Re. Shaykh Nabeel, it is a case of whether you want to contact him to put him right or seek clarification. If it's the latter, then he will speak to you and attempt to clarify things but if you have already decided what the facts are then you are going to get the short drift.

    If he is being disingenuous or blind following Shah Sahib, then like I said, it will come out. The picture will become clear but we can only pray it works out for the better In sha Allah.

    We are in desperate need for greater unity within our ranks. I know it looks like it is Shah Sahib and his colleagues are causing the disunity but let's see how things shape up in the coming months
  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    really? they should stop releasing the clips then.

    as can be seen from the fb post, nabeel sahab has simply re-iterated the slanders and disinformation that were evident from the clips anyways.

    for me this isn't new, I have been through this 'personal coaching' thing before - and I have an idea as to how it works.

    we are supposed to go by what is apparent, and what is apparent is zulm - not on an individual but the local sunni community as a whole.

    Hundreds of clueless sunnis who don't know what to think, whom to believe. Making a spectacle of sunnis. I will now be afraid to tell anyone in search of sunnism to "just go to youtube and you will find plenty of proofs for the sunni side".

    Let that sink in.

    Allah knows best, but this is absurd - after setting fire to an entire community, they are telling us we should just shut our eyes and hope for the best!

    Sooner or later this fire is coming to the UK - I am barely hoping that there are enough sensible people to put a stop to it before it engulfs them too.

    poor attempt at damage control. what's that even supposed to mean - it's night time but the sun is still shining because there is a context to it. go figure.

    jalali sahib was screaming at the top of his voice that he did not mean anything even close to negative and yet he was ruthlessly attacked and hounded out of his madrasah and sent to prison, and here we are being asked to ignore what was being shouted on a live camera with thousands of witnesses and just accept that "they don't reflect his actual position" - that is to say "he didn't really mean it".

    anything else?

    is that a cruel joke or what?
  4. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Even if Sayyid Irfan Shah and coterie felt so strongly about issuing fatwa of kufr, what was the point of following up with registering a case, and escalating it to court? It is clear from the news reporting that the court/police action was instigated by some 100+ peerzadas (no prizes for guessing under whose leadership). What was Shah sahib's role in that? Clearly he was anointed the spearhead.

    Does anyone in the anti-Jalali brigade have any fear of the pandora's box opened by involving the government/law machinery? AbdalQadir et al have already highlighted the dangers of such precedence (and invocation of blasphemy law). How does Nabeel Afzal justify that? Since when have ulemas (in recent 100-200 years) used political crutch to settle gustakhi/kufr allegation?

    gaali-galoch, spurious fatwas and ganging up aside, the ramification of this episode will be very far-reaching.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as long as the bazaari language employed under the banner of sayyidah raDiyAllahu anhaa appeared, we were guarded and not openly critical of irfan shah.

    this is because he is dragging the religion of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam to gali galoch. and we cannot allow that even if a sayyid does it.
    Noori likes this.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i sincerely recommend the brother to read books of aqidah by imams of kalam - irfan shah sahib is only muddling the issue, omitting key details and misrepresenting the view of ahl al-sunnah.

    don't forget that irfan shah first said that using 'khata' with anbiya without qualification is kufr. and when pointed out that imam azam's ibarat was shown, he made adjustments and spoke of the terminology of earlier generations etc. (i might have mixed up some things as i watched a few clips and an interview with a lot of half-hearted explanations. feel free to correct me.)

    the point that using khata with anbiyaa has been permitted; and relatively, non-prophets are also included.
    thus, anyone who says khata with sayyidah fatimah raDiyAllahu anha - has not committed gustakhi, has not insulted her regardless of the actual even being a khata or not.

    i have already dealt with it. using a hadith to suit one's own interpretation can work both ways. there numerous hadith that imply about a person being this or that.

    besides, this is a weak hadith AND it not only includes itrat of RasulAllah SallALlahu alayhi wa sallam, but also anSar and arabs. so whoever abuses an arab should automatically become one of the three.

    secondly, even if we accept it, you will have to prove that 'the haqq of itrat' was violated. that is the core issue. attributing khata to itrat is NOT violating their right. it is a matter of academic interest that non-prophets which include ahl al-bayt are not immune from khata.

    what if someone attributes a khata where it did not exist? even then, it could be bad adab, it cannot be termed insult and by extension deemed insult of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    for all those people - maulavis or non-maulavis who have no knowledge of "what constitutes an insult" please read imam qaDi iyaD's shifaa and this faqeer has translated in TKM.

    Unbeknown, shahnawazgm and Noori like this.
  7. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    In regards to the opening points of Nabeel Afzal, I have to say that these are so ridiculous and absurd!

    Let me apply his very own logic about his peer, Irfan Shah, whom he appears to so blindly worship. We are all aware that a few years ago Irfan Shah attributed the word "gaali" to Allah ta'alah. I am just rephrasing his opening points.

    1. The word gaali in Common Language (urf) when used unrestrictedly is much more harsh and significantly more severe than the term 'khata' which basically in common terms means an error/mistake. And it is common knowledge that an error/mistake does not necessarily imply a 'sin'.

    2. No person in Islamic history has used this word unrestrictedly for Allah Ta'alah.

    3. We all know the excuses Irfan Shah made in the video that I posted earlier in this forum when he attributed the word gaali to Allah!

    4. No scholar in 1400 years has attributed the term gaali for Allah Ta'alah under any circumstance.

    Any say on this Nabeel Afzal? How many more can of worms are you going to open in your blind worship for your peer?
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
    Unbeknown and Noori like this.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Ok, let's say Sayyid Mash'hadi has some sort of plan.

    Why does that need him to boycott a Sunni scholar, say he has done kufr, call him la'nati, call him harami, issue a fatwa against him and say he is out of Ahl al-Sunnah?

    So is he trying for unity with shiah supporters by ousting our own?

    If he had tried to bring those people back without attacking Jalali sahib, it could be understood. But mixing up masum/mahfuz and giving credence to Minhajis like Taslim Sabri isn't the way.

    So what's being said is, we can't see the wisdom behind what Sayyid Mash'hadi is doing and just have to wait and see whilst Jalali sahib gets called all sorts by that camp.
  9. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Nabeel's justification from the hadith for Shah sahib's swearing

    Again, can Shah sahib and his followers prove without any ihtimal or a shadow of a doubt that Allamah Jalali committed blasphemy in the court of Sayyida Fatima al Zahra radhiyAllahu ta`ala anha?

    If not, this does not apply
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  10. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Some people on Nabeel's page are quoting the following from Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif


    Few reasons this ibarat from Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif does not apply here

    1) The Irfan shah sahib camp must prove without a doubt that khata or khata ijtihadi comes under the category of lack of ta`zim.

    2) This la`nat is not specific to any one person whereas Munawwar shah bukhari almost made it obvious he meant Allamah Jalali sahib in his la`nat.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  11. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Furthermore, if Nabeel Afzal was sincere, he would not blind follow his pir sahib on this issue. Also he would answer our questions without referring to us as "wastemen" as he did with Aftab Qadri (a commentator on his page).
  12. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    We haven't seen any sharayi daleel yet from this camp about whether using the term khata against a non Prophet counts as blasphemy. If they are so clear on their stance why not publish it rather than have people phoning them up for clarification?

    Again, what context makes it jayaz for him to swear in such a manner? All I can see is excuses from his camp. Ask Nabeel to issue written evidence.

    So Irfan Shah spills out things from his mouth without thinking that do not necessarily reflect his beliefs? Any other tawil his camp has for what he has done?
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
    Noori likes this.
  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @AR Ahmed. I think you should speak to Shaykh Nabeel. He is a sincere person, I've just spoken to him for an hour. He has cleared a lot of things up, especially about Shah Sahib's efforts. I am no longer commenting on this issue further, until the reality becomes clear.

    I humbly request the brothers here, instead of looking at various clips and making conclusions, speak to the likes of Sh Nabeel, who is a representative of Shah Sahib to at least find out the ground reality of Shah Sahib's efforts. Let's wait for how this issue comes to head and then we will see. In sha Allah, the hope is, we might see more unity in the ranks of Sunnis

    With regards to the swearing, shaykh Nabeel did not try to justify it but provided a context. I don't agree it should be used. However, the implications of the language used should be treated as a separate issue, because they don't reflect Shah sahib's beliefs

    Overall, I feel content that Shah sahib is working in the interest of Sunnis. That's what matters.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  14. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    This is a lie. They refused to offer Mawlana Jalali even the semblance of a fair discussion which is why this ended up the way it was. They wanted "ruju" without even explanation.

    Furthermore, is it not the way of A`lahazrat radhiyallahu anhu to give as many chances as possible? So why takfir and a fatwa of gumrahi after one chance?
    Unbeknown likes this.
  15. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Will Nabeel Afzal and his followers like Abul Hasnayn respond to my questions or will there forever more be deafening silence on their part?
  16. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    As for irfan shah sahib, where is his ihtiyat? he said not to do jald-bazi in fatawa here and to save the person first from takfir:

    see 17 mins onwards (specifically 17:15)
  17. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Siddiqui sahib! when you debated Mawlana Ashraf siyalwi you said you respected them on a personal level! That was about what irfan shah sahib called "inkar e nabuwwat"

    but on this you are calling Allama jalali sahib mal`un and kafir! wah wah aysay usul ko salam ho!
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  18. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Here is "Mufti" Jamil Ahmad Siddiqui sahib at the urs of the father (Rahimahullah) of Mawlana Ashraf Asif damat barakatahum, the same Mawlana Ashraf Asif about whom Irfan Shah sahib said "harami bacha":

    Here is an expose of "Mufti" Jamil Ahmad Siddiqui:

  19. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Another question for "Mufti" Jamil Ahmad Siddiqui Bhikkwi, head of "fatwa", Jami`a Muhammadiya Nooriya Bhikki Mandi Bahauddin Punjab Pakistan, since he is the one who put forward a "fatwa" calling Jalali sahib mal`un (wa iyadhubillah) and kafir (astaghfirullah)

    Where did your ehtiyat go? The same ehtiyat you used in not calling Mawlana Muhammad Sa`id Ahmad As`ad a kafir or gumrah even though he held the same position that you refuted from Mawlana Ashraf Siyalwi marhum**? See here:

    Was it that you were under pressure? or did you forget your usul? if it was one of these or both, you should resign and hang your head in shame and not call yourself a "Mufti"

    ** Note I do not call Mawlana Ashraf Siyalwi marhum as a kafir or mubtadi`/gumrah. He holds a marjuh position
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  20. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I have never been an admirer of jalali sahab, but whoever, regardless of the length of his turban, has issued the fatwa of kufr or deviance on him should study dars-e-nizami from the start. I cannot consider that person an alim or have respect for him at all. such person can only be a rafzi, tafzeeli, or a sell out molvi.
    Unbeknown likes this.

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