G F Haddad: Hell Fire Coming to an End Position of Sahabah

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by ramiz.noorie, Aug 10, 2020.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    GF Haddad holds several deviant and aberrant positions, this is one of them. Shouldn't we distance from such preachers, then why does Mawlana Abu Hasan gets upset when he is shown who is hanging around with GF Haddad and he says in the post "i think everyone knows the proverb - "show me your friends, i will tell you who you are". (http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/shaykh-asrar-deobandis-and-blind-comformity.14559/#post-69425)

    Several serious problems and deviancies of GF Haddad are documented on this forum, yet when he is invited by someone in the UK, they are not labelled sulla kulli or minhaji. see this post http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/shaykh-asrar-meeting-gfh-and-shaykh-foudeh-on-kadhib.14561/

    This explains why some are not happy with the way some of our ulama in the UK or Pakistan.

    May Allah open up our eyes sadaqa e huzoor e pak.
  2. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    brother I thought you had translated the part from the original book into English. And this scan was just to provide the info, because you said that Taj ushShariah may have summed up the position of jumhur in his translation.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my comment was related to your comment in an earlier post; and not about the translation per se (as far as i remember):

    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  4. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    although it would have invaluable, Hazrat Taj ushShariah did not make any additions to the translation of the original or the footnotes. I have attached the scans of the same herebelow.

    20150523_192134.jpg 20150523_192222.jpg
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Dr. G. F. Haddad wrote the following:

    Ibn Taymiyya's affirmed and denied the eternality of hellfire intermittently, in the same way as he intermittently affirmed and denied the corporeality of the Divine, the beginninglessness of the world, and other things. His denial of the eternality of hellfire and his suggestion of its eventual extinction was refuted, among others, by the Commander of the Believers in Hadîth Muhammad ibn Ismâ'îl al-San`ânî in his Raf` al-Astâr li-Ibtâl Adillat al-Qâ'ilîn bi Fanâ' al-Nâr ("Exposing the Nullity of the Proofs of those that Claim that Hell-Fire Shall Pass Away") and by Shaykh al-Islâm Taqî al-Dîn al-Subkî in his epistle al-I`tibâr bi Baqâ' al-Jannati wa al-Nâr published as part of his book al-Durra al-Mudiyya fî al-Radd `alâ Ibn Taymiyya, which also contains two epistles refuting the latter's positions on divorce. In al-I`tibâr al-Subkî states:

    The doctrine of the Muslims is that Paradise and Hellfire do not pass away. Abû Muhammad Ibn Hazm has reported Consensus on the question and the fact that whoever violates such Consensus is a disbeliever (kâfir) by Consensus. There is no doubt over this, for it is obligatorily known in the Religion and the evidence to that effect is abundant. fn78

    This heretical doctrine was endorsed by Ibn Taymiyya's admirer Ibn Abî al-`Izz in his commentary on al-Tahâwî, in flat contradiction of the latter's statement, §83. "The Garden and the Fire are created and shall never be extinguished nor come to an end."

    fn77 Ibn Hazm, Marâtib al-Ijmâ` (p. 193-194).
    fn78 Al-Subkî, al-Durra al-Mud.iyya fî al-Radd `alâ Ibn Taymiyya (3rd epistle, al-I`tibâr bi Baqâ' al-Jannati wa al-Nâr p. 60).
    fn79 Cf. Ibn Abî al-`Izz, Sharh. (p. 427-430).

  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mawlana jami cites rafidis and says: 'according to their claims..' you can read all of it in persian shawahid:

    shawahid 1.jpg

    shawahid 2.jpg shawahid 3.jpg shawahid 4.jpg shawahid 5.jpg shawahid 6.jpg
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    see what he says here - https://ahmedamiruddin.wordpress.co...hestani-imam-mahdi-rad-is-not-sunni-nor-shia/

    i wonder what gibril haddad has to say to this!
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    same strange claims are made about hazrat molana abdul'rrahman al-jami alaihi rahmah regarding imam mehdi here on amiruddin's blog, does anybody have any knowledge, i suspect false attribution to him.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in mu'taqad al-muntaqad of imam faDl Rasul badayuni, he mentions like all other texts (taHawiyah, nasafi, sharH al-aqayid, etc.)

    [paraphrased translation:]

    that heaven and hell are two abodes that are created and present (unlike mu'tazilah who say that it is not present now, but will be created on judgement day) and both dwellings shall abide forever; and the dwellers therein shall also stay in forever. ibn taymiyyah and his student ibn qayyim al-jawziyyah said that hell will be extinguished eventually. and there are reports by SaHabah ibn mas'ud, ibn umar, abu sayid and ibn abbas, about 'hell extinguishing' but that should be understood in the context of sinners among muslims being removed from hell. but this [ibn taymiyyah's] is a rejected opinion and proscribed viewpoint which is neither followed nor relied upon. [mu'taqad,p.187]

    [aH: as alahazrat has said: Allah kya jahannam ab bhi na sard hoga // ro, ro ke Mustafa ne dariya baha diye haiN]

    alahazrat has a footnote [#306] [again paraphrased:]

    it is sufficient proof that Allah ta'ala has said:

    surah al-baqarah 2:167


    surah al-mayidah, 5:37


    elsewhere in the same book, alahazrat has said that we do not do takfir of ibn taymiyyah. imam subki and many ulama who came after him did not do takfir of ibn taymiyyah. so it is implicitly understood that such a belief is heresy and kufr in itself, but we do not do takfir of those who hold this aberrant view, based on a misunderstanding of verses or hadith that talk of "hell being empty" or "hell extinguished".

    note: imam faDl al-rasul ALSO mentions ijma'a of muslimin on this aspect, that hell will not extinguish contrary to ibn taymiyyah's claim.

    i assume taju'sh shariah [who has also translated mutaqad/mustanad into urdu] summed up the jumhur opinion [concerning those who say hell will extinguish eventually] thus.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
    Noori likes this.
  10. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    I had posed the question to Hazrat Taj ushSharia Mufti Akhtar Rida Khan - "what if a person believes that finally Hell will be destroyed?" (jahannam fana'a kar di jayegi) . I clearly remember he said "Such a person is bud-aqeedah" (woh bud-aqeedah hai) - It was a short, quick reply, so perhaps he did not elaborate whether the heresy has actually crossed the limit of Kufr.

    I read Imam Subki's treatise that explicitly says there is Ijma'a that disbelievers will be punished forever, and therefore it is Kufr to believe otherwise. (It also discusses Surah Hud Ayah 107, and Surah An'aam Ayah 128).

    I seek Allah's pardon, and apologize to my friends, if there was a confusion.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  11. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Last edited: Dec 28, 2014
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i said:
    my reason:

    spot the kufr:
    how many according to fuqahaa?
    how many according to mutakallimoon?

  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the most prominent deniers of everlasting fire were the jahmiyah, as noted in books of aqidah; and therefore this point was highlighted and refuted and was a point of aqidah which every muslim should know, hence its mention in all beginner texts.

    in bad' al-amali:

    wa la yafna'l jahimu wa la'l jinanu
    wa la ahluhuma ahlu'ntiqali

    neither hell nor paradise will be annihilated
    and neither will their dwellers go out of (either hell or paradise)

    in jawharah:

    daaraa khuludi li's sayeedi wa'l shaqee
    mu`addhabun muna`amun mahma baqee

    the two eternal dwellings - [one] for the fortunate and [one] for the evil, criminals
    punishment and reward for them will be abiding, in whichever [of the two] they abide forever.

    also attached is imam subki's risalah, "al-iytibar bi baqa al-jannati wa'n naar" attached here, where he begins citing ijma'a as stated by ibn Hazm.

    if you prefer kawthari edition: see here. [PDF 1.2MB]

    another edition on bibalex you can read (not good print though) and not straightforward to download:

    Attached Files:

  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    how come? it contradicts explicit verses (except perhaps one). What is the madhhab of the fuqaha in this regard as opposed to the mutakallimoon? and is the position of ash'aris and maturidis in regard to the nature of this heresy same?

    jazakAllahu Khayran.
  17. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    It is heresy to believe that the fire of hell will some time be extinguished or that Hell will be destroyed (fanaa), (and therefore no more punishment for the disbelievers);

    a person holding such beliefs is bud-aqeedah.
  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    can you please point to the actual issue in propagating contradictions to the Quran that disbelievers torment shall come to an end?

    why would someone want to propagate such beliefs?
  19. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    A refutation without name calling is more effective. Name calling and unnecessary comments distract from the actual issue.

    It does matter if your language dissuaded people from the argument and it does matter if people choose to dismiss your argument based on your language. If that were not the case why would Sayyiduna Musa alayhisalam be ordered to use soft speech with Pharaoh in order that he repent? And Pharaoh did not repent.

    Yes there were times when Ulama were harsh in their language, but there are much more instances when they were not. Even when they were harsh their writings were filled with knowledge. In this case you only post curses and names without bringing any substance forward. This has no real effect except perhaps to take a load off your chest or something else which you will only know of.

    When Imam Subki refuted Ibn Taymiyyah he did not declare the former a kafir due to some considerations. Even though the position is kufr. I think we need to concentrate on content more than distractions like cursing and name calling. It don't achieve anything and it is not taken serious. Especially when you add conspiracy to it.
    Adam Yahya likes this.
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    a life long commitment to defend very, very dodgy and known to be loyal-to-the-powers zanadiq (nazim & hisham) is not a simple slip.

    sorry brother, i believe in being aggressive over zanadiq. i don't see the point of refuting open contradictions to explicit verses of the Quran. i believe ihanah of the ahlul bid3ah and zanadiq is necessary and reward-worthy.

    as for undecided people, if someone is truly undecided and ignorant of the truth, he will investigate things from all angles. if someone has already decided to stay an agnostic mubtadi3 or atheist hiding behind "uncommitted", your best language can't convince him. you also know of nj who despite kind counsel never mended his zandaqa. you also know of the so many shameless deobandi zanadiq all over the net who have seen all objective proofs, as well as a few "neutral" folks on the Sunni-deobandi issue despite having seen heaps of proofs against the deobandi elders!

    our passivity is the reason we're losing people to these perennialists, deobandis and wahabis.

    firstly, guidance is not in our hands. just to give an example, objective proofs exist on matters of Mawlid, proclaiming Ya Rasul-Allah, etc. it convinces some, yet doesn't affect some others.

    secondly, on matters that are blatantly obvious and people lying against explicit verses of the Quran, we need to more than just "refute". it is not about being childish or having a playground attitude.

    this whole thing reeks of a campaign to propagate the belief that people of every religion shall go to heaven, and therefore stop the advance of da3wah and proselytization.

Share This Page