ghayr mahram women, massage and mahall e fitna

Discussion in 'Bibliography' started by sunnistudent, Nov 20, 2011.

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  1. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Enough reference and explanation has been provided for any sincere student. The thread would not have stretched so long , if Ghulam e ghaus would have understood or asked his teachers to explain him the meaning of " mahall e fitna". But he did not do this and without understanding the term he tried to corner Ala Hazrat!

    I am not trying to defend only Ala Hazrat, but all awliya and scholars of Ahlus sunnah. Before criticizing any sunni scholar we should first at-least understand the meaning of the text which he has used.
  2. .:Amatullah:.

    .:Amatullah:. Active Member

    Ala Hazrat states:

    That woman who has not reached the age of lust [maturity], meaning [the one] who is less than nine years of age or she has surpassed the boundaries of tribulation [unable to arouse desire] such as a repulsive old woman, then being served by her is permissible; even in solitude it is not forbidden. Whichever stranger woman is divergent to these two cases [then] she is a possible cause of tribulation (mahal e andesha e fitnah); solitude with her is forbidden. If she, without solitude, cooks and the like, then there is no harm in it. As for massaging [her] feet and having them massaged [by her], and speaking to her in private in order to please the self; this is explicitly forbidden and a satanic work. (al-Fatawa al-Riddawiyya al-Sharif, Vol. 22, Page 208.

    Note: In the above answer, Sayyidi mentions that if a woman is past the age of maturity, i.e. above nine years of age, and she is not very old either, then the woman is mahal e fitnah. This term (Mahal Fitnah) is used by Ala Hazrat in this chapter to refer to a woman who does does not meet the two mentioned criteria.

    Now turning to the original fatwa of Ala Hazrat; The Imam says that having the feet, hands and back massaged by ghayr mahram women is allowed if there is no mahal fitnah. Therefore, the meaning is that such an action is allowed if the woman is either under the age of nine years or is very old.

    All of this may have been discussed by our knowledgeable brethren however I though I would also participate in defending the words of my Imam.

    And Allah knows best.
  3. so what i understand is that if it is not mahall e fitna and one is not alone then massaging of hands, feet and back is allowed. a little girl or an old woman can massage all these if there is no fear of fitna. that is the fatwa.

  4. Question:
    If a pir (spiritual Shaykh who) is not old, but is young and females serve him out of their own pleasure without veil (or veiling), they massage his hands and feet is it permissible (in Islamic law)?
    It is not permissible for a strange woman to touch the hands and feet of a young man.

    Shaykh al Islam Imam Ahmad Rida ‘alaihi al rahmah wal ridwaan
    al ‘Ataayaa al Nabbawiyyah fi al Fatawaa al Ridawiyyah
    Volume 22 page 244-245

    For the the fitnah spreaders don’t think that you will be successful in your aim of discrediting the Imam.

    A certain religious individual that disparaged Sayyiduna Amir Mu’awiyyyah radi Allahu Ta'ala ‘anhu brought this up in Nottingham and was answered amply about a month ago. al hamdulillah.

    This whole plan of trying to confuse the ‘Awaam will not work as long as the scholars are alive in sha Allah Tabaarak wa Ta’ala.

    There is a whole plot working to discredit him and devalue his great work for Islam and the Ahl us Sunnah.

    May Allah protect us aameen bi jahin Nabi al Kareem Sall Allahu ‘alaihi wa Aalihi wasallam

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    such ignorance, but yet, the fancy themselves questioning a man like alahazrat, whose command of hanafi fiqh is legendary.

    you don't even know that ibn nujaym raHimahullah passed away before reaching kitab al-karahiyah. if you had read malfuzat of alahazrat, and his encounter with the hanafi mufti, you would have learnt this.

    you are quoting for takmilah of tuuri. but, that is not the point.

    if you had read the whole discussion, (instead of hunting for quotes to implicate others or exonerate self) you would have seen this in the very page you quoted:

    فحاصله أنه يشترط لجواز المس أن يكونا كبيرين مأمونين في رواية وفي أخرى

    but interestingly, if you read the whole thing - at the end of this discussion, allamah tuuri says:

    إذا كانت شابة فإن كانت عجوزا قال في التتارخانية فإن كانت عجوزا لا تشتهى فلا بأس بمصافحتها ومس يدها وأن تغمز رجله وكذا إذا كان شيخا يأمن على نفسه وعليها وفي الغياثية ولا بأس أن يعانقها من وراء الثياب إلا أن تكون ثيابها رقيقة تصل حرارة بدنها إليه وفيما إذا كان الماس هو المرأة

    any serious student should at least read the whole discussion instead of jumping to conclusions.

    but why are you giving quotes? who asked you to? i have given al-ayni's quote which clearly tells of touching above izar. if you cannot understand that, it is not my problem.

    it is al-lubab, if i am not wrong. but that is not the point.

    if you had not looked at those lines and ran away with it, and read the whole discussion, you would see this. (i am typing this myself because i don't know if an online version exists; please forgive any typos. moreover, this is faster in this case)

    vol.4/p.165 of al-lubab of al-maydani:

    وقيدنا بالشابة لأن العجوز التي لا تشتهي لا بأس بمصافحتها ومس يدها لانعدام خوف الفتنة وتمامه في الهداية

    so he sends back to al-hidayah; which means read al-binayah if you wish to understand al-hidayah.

    you quote radd al-muhtar (because durr is so concise, i will not mention it) only the part which we all know. but you make no attempt to enhance your knowledge and learn what YOU don't know.

    if you had only read a few pages prior to what you quote:

    ( قوله أما العجوز إلخ ) وفي رواية يشترط أن يكون الرجل أيضا غير مشتهى ا هـ قهستاني عن الكرماني ، قال في الذخيرة : وإن كانت عجوزا لا تشتهي ، فلا بأس بمصافحتها أو مس يدها ، وكذلك إذا كان شيخا يأمن على نفسه وعليها فلا بأس أن يصافحها وإن كان لا يأمن على نفسه أو عليها فليجتنب ، ثم إن محمدا أباح المس للرجل إذا كانت المرأة عجوزا ولم يشترط كون الرجل بحال لا يجامع مثله ، وفيما إذا كان الماس هي المرأة فإن كانا كبيرين لا يجامع مثله ، ولا يجامع مثلها فلا بأس بالمصافحة فليتأمل عند الفتوى ا هـ ( قوله جاز سفره بها ) ولا يكون إلا في المحارم وأمة الغير ولم يذكر محمد الخلوة والمسافرة بإماء الغير ، وقد اختلف المشايخ في الحل وعدمه ، وهما قولان مصححان ط .

    ولها أن تصافح الشيوخ في الشفاء عن الكرميني العجوز الشوهاء والشيخ الذي لا يجامع مثله بمنزلة المحارم

    and for abu fadl, you could have remained silent and people would have thought that you were ignorant; instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

    don't tell me that you expect alahazrat to teach basic terminology and contexts in EVERY fatwa? anybody who claims to criticize him should at least be conversant with the basic terminology of fuqaha.

    but that is not the point. i gave you the reference of al-ayni and you probably cannot even read it. if you were a sincere student, you would have at least looked up the text. and if you did, the very next line after what i have quoted below (in the image from al-binayah) is your answer:

    "the old woman is similar to a little girl (in the ruling" [see image one]

    you guys don't even know the basics of fiqh and usul; you are incapable of even reading these texts and you come to argue with students on imam ahmed rida's opinion. i don't think you can stand for more than ten minutes in front of any capable mufti.

    yeh hal aur is pey za'm e parwaz bey baal.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  6. yes, brother AH, you have a point there and from other fatwas it is clear that being alone with na-mahram women and massaging is haram in general. it also says that shaking of hands with old women is ok. however, given the conditions feet, hands and back can be massaged. it is here that I find nothing anywhere. I do not have physical books in front of me so here it is from what i could find.

    in behr al-raiq it is said:
    ولا يجوز له أن يمس وجهها ولا كفها وإن أمن الشهوة لوجود المحرم ولانعدام الضرورة
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Just to clarify the position of the madhab, what brother Sunnistudent has quoted is the general ruling. If one drills down, there are EVEN tougher details:

    The key word here is lust. The woman should be in a position that she can be lusted after a man who is sexually capable.

    It is the ruling of the madhhab that EVEN IF a 6 or 7 year old girl is taller and/or bulkier and/or beautiful so much so that it would be possible for a sexually capable man to lust after her SHE TOO will come under the ruling of a woman. It will be haram for the man to look at her or to touch her. Likewise, it will be incumbent upon the parents to make sure she dresses in full Islamic coverings.

    It is ALSO the ruling of the madhhab that if an old woman is past menopause, but she's still attractive and pretty and healthy and so on, SHE TOO will be under the ruling for young women, even if she's 100!

    FINALLY, it is ALSO the ruling of the madhhab that young pretty-boys and MALE adolescents (amrad) will ALSO fall under the ruling of "women" as far as other older men are concerned IF such older men feel lust towards them. THAT IS, older men will NOT even be allowed to listen to them reciting na3ts, or to get massages from them, or to look at them with lustful tendencies, or shake hands with them and so on. Those men who have homosexual tendencies towards such pretty-boy adolescents, will be SINFUL if they do not guard their gazes. They should treat these pretty-boys the same way they treat women, that is, guard their gazes, not mingle with them and so on! Even listening to na3ts from such pretty-boys, by a man who is attracted to them and derives pleasure from their voices, is NOT thawab but rather a SIN, exactly as it is if they listened to a woman reciting na3t deriving pleasure from her voice!

    WAllahu Ta3ala a3lamu wa ahkam.
  8. it states 'mahall e fitna'. end of story. you're really trying to hold on to straws now. i would suggest to just leave this, now.

    rahimaLlahu al-imam Ahmad Rida.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    talk about scraping the barrel!
  10. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    Thanks for the info guys. I did not think it needed drawing out in the way it was but I still think some clarification is needed as the general word "women" is being used and not very old ladies and young girls under 8.

    There are obvious words in urdu to express this but it says women?
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is late now, any follow up is possible only tomorrow, inShaAllah. my apologies.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i wanted to translate, but since gg is in a hurry and loves to read arabic, i will spare him the trouble of reading my defective translations.

    actually, if gg was not a shadh-hunter, and was a sincere student, he would find three other fatawa in that volume of fatawa ridawiyyah itself that explain the issue. if you want to learn, Allah ta'ala will help you; but if you want to revile His friends, you will be humiliated. nas'alu Allah al-`afiyah:



    and the arabic attachment is from al-binayah of al-ayni citing taj al-shariah. i can get you more such quotes if you wish. [kitab al-karahiyah]

    [if you look up the dar al-kotob ilmiyah edition, this is on vol.12/p.132; if you are looking up a scanned version, it is on vo.11/p.148]

    Attached Files:

  13. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I am feeling ashamed of asking the understanding of "mahall e fitna" as understood by Ghulam e ghaus and then he also deduced a ruling from this.

    Anyways, now I can not tolerate this more.

    Mahall e fitna : is ANYTHING which can be a casuse/ source of Fitna

    and we all the meaning of ' fitna"

    So this ruling is ONLY for young gals (below 8) and very old women and that too NOT in privacy

    Can we shake hands with a lady guest?

    Ghulam a ghaus sahab took a general ruling and he said " from this it is permissible"

    This deduction is wrong, because , you can shake hand with OLD WOMEN only and that too when it is a public place.

    It is based on this ruling that some scholars have allowed very old nurse to touch patients.

    Also, ghulam e ghaus sahab FAILED to explain this term. So in future I shall not accept his understanding and inferences.

    So this special permission with conditions is given , only for female children and very old women, as "dabwana" is not for "pleasure" ( because then the condition of mahall e fitna will come. ) So it is clear it is only as a medical relief and not" dabwana and malwana" as "pleasure and time pass" , as it will lead to "mahall e fitna"

    Now, Ghulam e ghaus, you can disagree with this view. But please , next time , don't make inference without understanding.


    Will you now please , give the reference of that quote from Imam Rabbani rh?
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    first answer to nj:
    yes, if you are an old man - and so old that you cannot be aroused; and the masseuse is so old and ugly that nobody is aroused by her. and of course, with a chaperone or in public.
  15. No, even according to GG's quote, since 'Mahal e Fitnah' would include the place you mention since they are full of women of marriageable age, as has been repeated over and over again.
  16. i know but i'm sure you will find the equivalent of dabwana/massaging in arabic?
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so you want that to be mentioned literally somewhere?

    since 'malwana' and 'dabwana' are not arabic words, i am afraid, you won't find that in any arabic book of fiqh.
  18. where is malwana and dabawana in there, brother sunnistudent?
  19. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Yes my brother. I already told this long back. you can scroll older post and see.

    Now please do explain that. And please do me a favour by giving the reference of that quote from Imam Rabbani rd as well.

    (raat ho gayee hai, time to sleep)
  20. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    You should check in Hidaya book of alhazar and ibaha. Imam Marghinani mentions shaking hands with an old woman who is not mahall e fitna. There are other fiqh quotes as well but this one is sufficient.

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