Discussion in 'Bibliophile's Corner' started by Qasim Hanafi Ridwi, Jan 11, 2014.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    this is not true

    vol 6, question 420, ala hazrat says at the end that

    apparently it looks as if he is doing takfir of every deobandi and wahabi.

    in reply to question 592 (vol 6) he says in even more clear words that

    the date of istaftaa is not mentioned but istiaftaa before it (that is 491) was asked in 1294 H
    two things are very clear from this fatwa

    1) some bid'aties are not kafir and salah behind them is makruh tahrimi
    2) those who have reached the level of kufr salah behind them is batil (and kufr itself)

    but it looks as if ala hazrat radiAllahu anh' has made takfir or every individual deobandi and wahabi, but this will be actually attesting to deobandi objection, and rejecting ala hazrat's own statement that he didn't do takifr or everybody.

    he replies to another istaftaa sent on 19 shabaan 1319H, question 625/626 vol 6.

    [QUOTE](۱) بہت لوگ ہیں ازانجملہ غیرمقلدین اور رافضی اور وُہ وہابی جن کی بدعت حدِکفر تک پہنچی ہے،سیدنا امام اعظم رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنہ فرماتے ہیں:الصلٰوۃ خلف اھل الھواء لاتجوز (اہل ہواء کے پیچھے نماز جائز نہیں۔ت)[/QUOTE]

    also see reply to istaftaa 628 sent on 3 shabaan 1318 H
    ala hazrat raDiAllahu anh replies
    from this fatwa it is very clear that there are ahl al-bid'ah who are kafir/murtad and salah behind them is batil (and kufr), and ala hazrat clearly uses the phrase 'khuch ghayr kafir rafzi, wahabi, tafzili' and then says that either prayer behind them is na-jaaiz (he didn't say batil) or sin and prohibitively disliked.

    these are few references from those that i collected for the jumu'ah prayer issue behind ahl al-bid'ah which i shall provide to brother chisti-raza, but they are also useful to prove that when ala hazrat says that all wahabi, deobandi, rafzi are kafir/murtad then he means those whose bid'ah is kufr.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    someone replied...

    al-Qari says, while commentating on the above hadith, that 'ummah' here refers to the 'ummah-al-ijaabah' whereas 'kulluhum-fin-naar' in the second part includes both the 'gumrah' as well as the 'murtad' kinds of mubtadis.

    as for the book, in the old editions it contained a very dangerous passage in the concluding section.

    Mawlana Usaid had quoted Imam Ghazzali saying that Haqq does not revolve around personalities, except that of RasulAllah (peace be upon him), such that one cannot say that whoever disagrees with say Imam al-Ashari in anything is a kafir/gumrah or that whoever disagrees with Imam Ahmed Rida Khan in any matter is a kafir/gumrah.

    Next he had quoted some azhari scholar of kalam who had said that 'It is very difficult to say that al-Haqq is limited to one specific group to the exclusion of all others. Allah alone knows.'

    this is not at all what Hujjat-ul-Islam is saying. It would imply that just as with the rawafid/deobandis/wahhabis there is some truth and some falsehood so too is the case with the Ahlussunnah!

    this was brought to Mawlana's notice and I was told that the passage was corrected in the later editions. I haven't had time to see the later editions so I cannot vouch for their correctness.

    finally, the book being a door to sulha-kulli-ism doesn't necessarily imply that mawlana Usaid-ul-Haqq sahib is gumrah.


    my thoughts:

    1) Maybe Azhari sahib has only seen the older editions and hence the comment

    2) Ala-Hadhrat had made takfir of all the deobandis/rawafid of his time. Did he consider them to be one of the 73 sects? or not even that? I do not know, but if he did consider them one of the 73 does this not imply that according to him too the hadith includes those groups whose deviance has reached the level of kufr and for them the 'kullu-hum-fin-naar' is abadan?

    Allah knows best.
  3. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    The position of ahleSunnah with regards to ultimate salvation for utter sinners is reflected here by Ala Hazrat, in his tarjuma "Kanz ul Imaan".

    وَمَن يَقۡتُلۡ مُؤۡمِنً۬ا مُّتَعَمِّدً۬ا فَجَزَآؤُهُ ۥ جَهَنَّمُ خَـٰلِدً۬ا فِيہَا وَغَضِبَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيۡهِ وَلَعَنَهُ ۥ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ ۥ عَذَابًا عَظِيمً۬ا

    اور جو کوئی مسلمان کو جان بوجھ کر قتل کرے تو اس کا بدلہ جہنم ہے کہ مدتوں اس میں رہے (ف۲۵۷) اور اللّٰہ نے اس پر غضب کیا اور اس پر لعنت کی اور اس کے لئےتیار رکھا بڑا عذاب

    [Nisa 4:93] And whoever slays a Muslim on purpose, his reward will be hell - to remain in it for ages - and Allah has wreaked wrath upon him and has cursed him and kept prepared a terrible punishment for him.


    مسلمان کو عمداً قتل کرنا سخت گناہ اور اشد کبیرہ ہے حدیث شریف میں ہے کہ دنیا کا ہلاک ہونا اللّٰہ کے نزدیک ایک مسلمان کے قتل ہونے سے ہلکا ہے پھر یہ قتل اگر ایمان کی عداوت سے ہو یا قاتل اس قتل کو حلال جانتا ہو تو یہ کفر بھی ہے فائدہ: خلود مدتِ دراز کے معنی میں بھی مستعمل ہے اور قاتل اگر صرف دنیوی عداوت سے مسلمان کو قتل کرے اور اس کے قتل کو مباح نہ جانے جب بھی اس کی جزا مدت دراز کے لئے جہنم ہے' فائدہ : خلود کالفظ مدت طویلہ کے معنی میں ہوتاہے تو قرآن کریم میں اس کے ساتھ لفظ ابد مذکور نہیں ہوتا اور کفار کے حق میں خلود بمعنی دوام آیا ہے تو اس کے ساتھ ابد بھی ذکر فرمایا گیا ہے

    Although the words are "khaledan feeha", the translation by Ala Hazrat is "muddaton us mein rahe" - Is the Grand Shaykh referring to such "dawaam", for the bad-aqeedah, bidatees (but not kaafirs)?
  4. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    Transcript of Mufti Akhtar Raza Sahab's speech

    Dear brothers, salaam! Below is the transcript of the speech by Allama Mufti Akhtar Raza Sahab (daamat barakatuhum al-aaliyah).

    Some parts of the speech were not clearly audible, so I have left them blank.

    Woh (doctor padri) musalmanon ko un ke saheeh deen, sachchey deen se door karna chaahta hai. Usi ki rawish par kuchh suleh-kulli – bahut se suleh-kulli, naam badal kar keh chal rahe hain – jin ka da’wa yeh hai keh “kalema go hai – la Ilaha illa Allah, Mohammed urRasool ulAllah - padh le, aqeedah kaisa hi rakh-khey, bas who musalmaan hai".

    Aur jo hadeeth abhi, maulana ………. ne sunaayi, ” ....... ummatee a’laa thalatha wa sab’yeen firqah: kulluhum fin-naare illa wahedah” - ‘meri ummat 73 ya 72 firqey ho jayegi, sab ke sab dozakh mein hain’; hadeeth me kaha “dozakh mein hain” – yeh jumla-e ismiyya hai – mufeede sabooto dawaam o istimraar hai. Is ka sareeh mafaad yeh hai ke woh hamesha dozakh mein rahenge – yeh mafaad nahin hai keh jaise benamaazi, sharaabi, kabaabi, faasiq o faajir thodey arsey ke liye, aarzi taur par jahannum me jaayega phir jannat mein jaayega, yeh mafaad nahin hai. Jis tarah se badayun ke aik molvi Usaid ulHaq ne is hadeeth ki yeh na-muhaqqaq tahqeeq ki hai. Yeh tahqeeq, tahqeeq nahin hai, balkeh sullah kulliyat ka da-wa hai – darwaza kholna hai. Hadeeth mein saaf farmaaya keh sab ke sab dozakh mein hain, magar aik – woh kaun hain? “maa ana alayhe wa asHaabi” – jis par mein hun aur mere sahabah hain. Aur doosri riwayat me hai – “hum ul-Jama’ah”. Jamaat e islami apne aap ko jamaat kahe, tableeghi jamaat apne aap ko jamaat kahe – lekin jamaat woh hai, jis ko Mustafa (alayhe salaat o salaam) ne jamaat kaha. Aur woh jamaat, jamaat e ahle-Sunnat hai, Ala Hazrat ke maan-ne walon ki jamaat hai.

    Jis ki tarjumaani Ala Hazrat ne apne shaer mein yun ki keh “ahle-Sunnat ka hai beyda paar, asHaabe Huzoor Najm hain aur naav hai Itrat Rasool ulLLah ki” - us jamaat mein raho – yahaan bhi beyda paar hai, ………wahan imtehaan ki manzil mein pass hoga, woh sunni pass hoga: wahabi, deobandi. raafzi koi pass nahin hoga.

    This speech was rendered on 04 December, 2013, in Mumbai, India.
  5. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    molana sahab, we can disscuss while maintaining adab, and truely speaking if molana usaid al-haq is a sullah kulli then ahlussunah should be warned, and his sullah kulliism should be highlighted. If you know something then kindly post without any hesitation. But right now i am scrathing my head.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i don't know which brother misheard or misread what.

    but Ala Hazrat's own position is that not every bid3ah reaches kufr, and not every bid3ati is a kafir, which is also the ijma3 of the salaf. some bid3ahs reach kufr and some don't. some mubtadi3s are kafirs and some are not.
  7. Muhtaram Janaab Noori Sahib bahot kuch kaha ja sakta hai.

    magar yahaan...
  8. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    I scanned through the books and had the same impression.

    In the clip Hazrat Mufti Sahib seems to imply that every non-Sunni is a kaafir who will remain for ever in hell. I am a bit confused about it....
  9. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Strange, no where in the book the author appeared to be a sullah kulli, or the contents try to lead this way. I don't know if molana usaid al-haq is a sulleh kulli, at least from this book he doesn't apeear so. He only warns calling deviants as kafir and proves with ample references. He explained that those deviants whose bida'ah has not reached to the level of bid'ah mukaffarah, they will be punished and then forgiven, in other words the hadith of 72 sects doesn't mean khulud fin'nar but dukhul fin'nar.

    If you don't interprete the hadith of 72 sects the way he has explained then you cannot escape the blame that ahlussunah consider everyone kafir, or otherwise explain the difference between a kafir and a bid'ati if both will remain in hellfire forever. If there is anything in the book which leads to this conclusion then it should be clearly mentioned and refuted with at least equally ample proofs. Read tafsir of surah fatiah in tafsir e naeemi, hazrat molana ahmed yaar khan rahimahulah clearly says that those deobandies and wahabies who only differ in furuaat will eventually go to jannah even with hardship (girtay partay).

    Note that i don't know molana usaid al-haq except that i read a couple of his books. Don't take it, by any means, that i am commenting on hazrat taaj al-shariyyah madda zillahu'l 'aali even if he holds this opinion, i haven't listened to his clip. My comments are on what brother aqib siad. However, if hazrat taaj al-shariyyah madda zillahu really have said it then i would like to know hazrat's dalaail or if other ulama have refuted molana usaid al-haq. I'm not fond of sullah kullies.
  10. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    i will try to write down the words of Hazrat, and post them soon.
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    is it possible to get a transcript? the audio is not very clear.


  12. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

  13. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

Share This Page