Hadrat Siddiq-e-Akbar | radiyAllahu Ta'ala 'anhu

who said otherwise?

you are right. to keep it short and simple, it is about

1) proper pronunciation from the right makharij
2) giving each vowel indicator its due

mere imitation of colloquial Arabic is not tajweed.

it's true not every Arab on the street knows tajweed. i have studied it from Arab teachers with a class full of Arabs and they too need to be taught tajweed

however, when people talk about preserving the rules and style of tajweed, no one implies copying the Lebanese street accent or the Moroccan street accent.

people are talking about preserving the proper manner of recitation of the Quran as it was revealed; and like it or not, despite the average Arab on the street not being 100% well versed with it, which is true, the fact of the matter is that it IS THEIR LANGUAGE, and the Arabs do have a larger percentage of trained and polished reciters who can give tajweed its proper due, compared to nonArabs - and there is NO HARM in using these trained people as a source of reference.

your talk about imitating street Arab accents is nothing but a 17 feet tall straw man.

even if someone DOES suffer from an inferiority complex and is a tryhard wannabe Arab, he can not for the life of him copy that style into Quranic recitation

1) during Quran recitation, he has to recite the Quran, ie, use the words in the Quran, not use the words he learnt on the street - simple common sense. he cannot show off his street smarts he learnt in Damascus or Jeddah, as all he would be using would be the words of the Quran.

[as far as makharij go:]
2) only an absolute idiot would think he has the license to use colloquial pronunciations in the recitation. the Yemenis and Khaleejis for example, pronounce the "Qaaf" ق as "G" sound, the Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians pronounce it as an "A" sound. For example, the word 'qaala' قال will be pronounced "gaala" by Yemenis and Khaleejis and "aala" by Egyptians and Lebanese and Syrians. the worst, most sinful, non-scholars, non-qaris from the Arabs do not use such colloquialisms during Quranic recitation, unless it is an accidental slip of the tongue; in formal usage, such change of letters can change meanings too.

a copy cat can not use such colloquialisms in recitation as it automatically implies one of the two

2a) he is illiterate and incognizant of the written word and learnt the Quran by verbally listening to it. impossible because if that is the case, he will never hear the Arabs say "gul huwallahu ahad" or "ul huwallahu ahad", as one example.

2b) he is literate of the Quran, learnt it from a teacher, recognizes the letters, and yet insists on using the colloquial pronounciations. very highly unlikely, as even those he would be copying from, don't do this, so he would only make an idiot of himself.

3) the Quran is recited, not spoken, not sung. no one recites in conversational talk. people speak normally or the pop culture addicts would be listening to songs.

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the major problems that Arabs generally face in tajweed is giving the vowel indicators their due, and straightening some of the sounds that they are in a habit of rounding off, like the word "tamam" for instance, is pronounced "tamaym" by many Arabs.

this may be a likely possibility for a copy cat as well, who has been staying with Arabs for a long time and hasn't learned tajweed formally.

but then to recognize and understand all of this, you'd have to have lived with Arabs AND know proper tajweed too and to be honest, i don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

I stand by what I said regardless of whatever videos you may bring up.

 

By the way, my intention was in no way to point out tajweed errors of Mashadi Shah Sahib or anyone else, it was just to show the hypocrisy and double-standards of some ill-will users.

 

As for quoting Irfan Mashhaddi Sahib, there are plenty of videos with him reciting Qur'an kareem and you can do your tajweed test there too but I think enough examples have been given already. The point is not to single a person out.

 

Ghulam, I don't spend all day on internet forums to respond to you every post as soon as you click send. I do have other things to do you know.

Abu Hasan, you are completely wrong and have totally missed the point of the lecture. I have heard another lecture of Syed Sahib's on the issue and it's the same think in there and states that the other versions in Bukhari Shareef (with different isnad) do not contain these words! You cannot comprehend the contents of the lecture. If you imply this you are either ignorant or stupid.

I do not like to use words but you are clinging on to something you have totally messed up on.

pir prasti? This is about the principle and you should be comtemplating on your nafs prasti that is apparent in your arrogance and big-headed attitude.

Tajweed is not only about makharij but among other things it is also about elongation of vowels, nuns. etc.,

Mere immitation of arabs in not tajweed, every Arab on the street does not know tajweed. Those who have studied it know it.

Abdul Hakim Murad in an article said the exact point as I did and that is that people from the Indian subcontinent can recite the Qur'an kareem perfectly well and and have had great tajweed masters accepted by the world over (and most who never visited Arabs lands), so why is it that some youth who have their origins from that part of the world attempt to copy the average Arab speaker? That was his complaint.

 

abu fadl doesn't answer questions as he ain't got answers just like zulifiqar and ya ali madad.

 

Where is Abu Fadl now? Imitating Arabs in tajwid out of wish to recite it in the way it was revealed stems from an infereority complex but wearing the bisht does not!

 

Hafiz Shaykh Sayyid Irfaan Shah al Mashhadi hafizahullah on tajweed & tarteel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8iVDKpS5bU&feature=related

forward to 2:21
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Sheikh Ilyas Qadri's tajweed is also very good, just like the 'Arab imitation'. Sheikh Kaukab Noorani's tajweed is also nice.

Shah Turabul Haq Sahab's pronunciation is good too, don't remember listening his recitation.

I haven't seen Muzaffar Shah Sahab or Abu Bakr Siddiq Shadhili Sahab or Mufti Akmal Sahab recite in proper recitation, but in speeches, their pronunciation is excellent when they quote a verse. The scholar who is the QTV tajweed teacher is also excellent in tajweed masha Allah. (forgot his name)

In the celebrities Owais Raza has very good pronunciation and recitation, other na'tkhwans might have too, but I don't listen to that many na't "albums"

The thing with subcontinentals is that mostly people (scholars included) only learn theoretical sciences and they can't get their tajweed right if they don't learn it. It doesn't come naturally to them. With the Arabs, since it's their language, even if a sheikh only ever learnt the theoretical sciences, he still ends up getting his tajweed right, at least to the basic requirement level. It's just incorporated naturally into their basic training when they're kids learning the alphabet and short surah's. With desis that's not the case. Early years Quranic education, if any, is about just being able to recognize the letters and run through the Quran, without focus on pronunciation/tajweed. It's worse when local neighbourhood middle-aged aunties teach the kids Quran.

Now Dawate Islami (at least in Karachi) is doing masha Allah great work in incorporating the tajweed into the kids system right from the start. Kids who go to learn the qae'da and short surah's at their centers, are taught excellent pronunciation and tajweed, just like kids in Arab schools learn it naturally.

Professional tajweed & reciting is different, and there are some excellent qurraa in the subcontinent, who are not scholars. The Arab nations of course have them too.

for those who don't know:

http://www.chillnite.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/arab_man.gif

 

this is ridiculous. if 'ulama' in our times have failed to learn tajwid, that is no proof that they are right. a mistake is a mistake, even if committed by the biggest scholar there is.

i know many old scholars whose tajwid was good until the time their teeth fell out (because of which certain letters cannot be pronounced properly). my teacher's recitation (he was a Hafiz too) was impeccable even in his advanced age (he passed away recently in his nineties) raHimahullah.

this is why scholars should be more careful in not committing mistakes; because jaahil awaam will take their mistakes as proof of validity.

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i disagree that all ulama from subcontinent are like this: for example, mawlana akhtar raza khan sahib (az'hari miyaN); not only is his tajwid very good, but the kind abufadl would probably categorize as 'imitating arabs'.

one can wear a modern bisht, but trying to recite qur'an like the arabs is a come down?

astaghfirullah.

 

if you read properly what i have written, i have clearly said that 'related'. i don't think i can argue with someone who doesn't even know what aTraf is, or the manner of hadith narrations where aTraf are routinely mentioned.

the words used by shah sahib are: 'is silsilah e ta'limat meiN poori bukhari meiN ek hi riwayat hai' [video time 0:59]

abu fadl is trying to outdo the deobandis in his pir-parasti and insisting that his pir is right no matter what. shah sahib is not saying about 'maghfurun lahum' but 'is silsilah e ta'alimat meiN' which can roughly be translated as 'in the related (silsilah=chain=linked=related) matter'.

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even if we accept for the sake of argument that this was the true intention of shah sahib, still he fails miserably on HIS hadith criticism. the point: 'looking for lice' as translated by shah sahib (tafli ra'asah) is NOT found in THIS particular this hadith. you have to go back to one of the other hadith mentioned. and if you do, the excuse that it was about 'maghfurun lahum' falls apart.

and the wordings of the hadith are also wrong.

he slanders bukhari, umm haram, calls a saHabi a weak narrator and is woefully inaccurate in history (umm haram traveled to damascus for the sake of yazid!). but still, he is untouchable.

wa ma alayna illa'l balagh.

wAllahu ta'ala a'alam.


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laTifah: umm sulaym is the sister of umm Haram. shah sahib in the abu bakr siddiq lecture (on which my comments are due) narrates a story (about dream interpretation) from nuz'hatu'l majalis. and in nuz'hatu'l majalis, this hadith is narrated by anas ibn malik and the author says that umm sulaym was the foster-aunt of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. which means umm Haram is also the foster aunt of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam as al-ayni has pointed out in his umdatu'l qari.

 

Ghulam that is exactly my point! These people have ill intentions and are on a slander campaign.

As for abu hasan's accusation of making mistakes, I watched the video and it turns out the ah did not even understand the lecture. You are writing a critique based upon your very poor comprehension skills leikin showq bohut hei.

For example, Shah Sahib in the lecture says this is the only Hadith in Bukhari and Abu H says Shah Sahib has made a mistake because it is mentioned a number of times in Bukhari. Well if you were at the level where you could understand Shah Sahib's lecture, Shah Sahib said it is the only Hadith with the words maghfoor lahum... and the other versions of the Hadith found in Bukhari and elsewhere do not contain these words.

That says enough about you and your haal but you are have the audacity to say other grand scholars make repeated mistakes! Some of the simple people here may champion you as a hero but this is because they do not understand any better. They instantly believe what you tell them, I did the wiser thing of listening myself.

 

Abu Fadl, refute the arguments and leave posting links. Explain yourself.

 

you mite as well post a link of all sub continent ulema.

 

Pir Hashmi Mia Sahib and Tajwid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJUOYwQGGw&feature=related

 

some people don't seem to know the difference between tajwid and accent.

tajwid is farD for everybody and nobody is excused from this. at least, that much tajwid is necessary so that their salat is valid. no one is exempt from this. however, after extensive effort, intense struggle and sincere attempts one cannot manage to pronounce the letter properly, they are considered as persons with a valid excuse.

even there, fuqaha say that they should learn those verses or surahs which do not have the letter they cannot pronounce. it is well known that the non-arabs have difficulty pronouncing Daad; so for example, if you cannot, try to find suwar or verses that do not have Daad.

and if this is not possible, then they should pray behind a person who can pronounce properly. and even if this is not possible, only then they are permitted to pray with errors.

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nobody can learn tajwid by reading books, and only an ignoramus will claim this.

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if a scholar makes mistakes in tajwid (which as i have pointed out is a fairly obvious science and is supposed to be taught to children even), one cannot take this as proof to violate tajwid.

no matter how big a scholar, if they make errors in tajwid which is classified as 'big errors', salat of those whose tajwid is correct is invalid behind them. look up imamat al-althagh in fiqh books if you like.

Allah ta'ala knows best.

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abu fadl's rant about arab imitation is wrong for many reasons; and for those who live in the UK - even shah sahib's murids - surely they don't speak english in the punjabi style if they can avoid it? i don't think many on our forum (from the uk) or on the yanaafi forum will trill their 'r' or pronounce the l in 'talk'. it is cool to have an english accent, but a crime to try speaking like the arabs?

heard of the fox without a tail?

 

tajweed is about saying the huroof with their proper makhaarij and following the rules of tajweed for reciting the Quran, giving each sound consonant its due... yes it IS about imitating an accent - the accent of the Quraysh as was spoken in the Prophet's time, Allah grant him peace. it is about trying as best as possible to imitate the recitation of the Prophet and the sahaba.

all the masters of tajweed worldwide try to preserve this blessed accent. it has nothing to do with modern day arab accents that vary from morocco to libya to egypt to sudan to yemen to iraq to palestine to syria to the persian gulf, although the modern yemeni accent is the closest to the one of the classical Qurayshi Arabic and also the closest in syntax, but then you're an expert and you'd know that.

it might come as a surprise to you but some of us actually know what we are talking about

saying the huroof with the proper makhaarij is not imitating an accent, but to speak in an analogy, a peindu who wants to add desi curry powder and tadka to pasta sauce and throw it on white rice and still wants to call it italian food can suit himself

i mean how dare we follow the rules of the language that is not our own. it is our solemn duty to speak it with OUR rules, right? what do the arabs know about Arabic and proper makhaarij of the letters?! we desis do!

imam Mustafa Raza Khan said about wahabis: saawan ke andhon ko hara hi hara dikhta hai

the same applies to you abu bukhl ... carry on with your blindness and your insults!

utterly disgusting!!

 

Moulna Faiz Ahmad Owais Sahib reciting the Qur'an (as I saw him being a praised by the fitnatalk website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTfPdpLS5AU

I posted it to wipe our your ludicrous dupery about "mistakes in tajweed"

Learning tajwid is a great act indeed, imitating an arab accent is something else. How many of these slanderers have learnt tajwid from the classical texts? Answer please.

About your names, I already said that apart from being idiots, it shows that the juvenile "refuters" are cowards too. Buzdili has been one of the sad traits of some mullas in recent decades but it seems to be found in some of internet mullas too, the difference that there's was more known as they did not hide their names.

 

let us hope he understands that suleiman!

as for the video in post 47, that too doesn't have proper tajweed. a spade is a spade.

some people seem to think that knowledge, age, piety and ... sigh ... tajweed are all one and the same. they are exclusive to each other. maybe the speaker possesses a wealth of knowledge. he should definitely be respected for his age, knowledge and piety and if he's left this world, we should pray for him and seek to obtain virtues by his knowledge.

however, that by default doesn't mean that he also had excellent tajweed.

lots of ghayr muqallid wahabis have good tajweed but are zero in knowledge and piety.

every item (knowledge, age, piety, recitation) has to be treated exclusive of the other.

one does not imply the other by default.

within knowledge itself, it can well be that a person has excellent command over one science but not of another, like 'aqidah, usul, fiqh, tasawwuf, hadith, tafsir, etc. this is of course a general statement, i am not making any allegations towards any person.

 

well said suleiman.