if a pir contravenes shariah

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by FaqirHaider, Jul 13, 2015.

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  1. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    In Imam Rabbani (q.s) maktubat, he said that something like, Ibn Arabi (q.s) did make error through his kashf, on matters that contravened the consensus of the Ulama'a and Awliyaa, but he was forgiven because of his connection with his Lord. If someone can provide that exact letter would be appreciated if not, i will try my best look for it again.

    I think ones you become a part time maghloob-ul hal, and part time-matlub-ul-hal it becomes hard to give a final verdict no?
  2. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    I would advise everyone to watch the following. Dr Booti' s views are presented correctly by his students. He was against bloodshed and not for the crimes of the regime:

  3. Moriarty

    Moriarty Veteran

    I would want to point at that Dr Booti was an excellent jurist. I think his work will be appreciated by generations to come. Here he teaches fiqh, despite if he made mistakes, and note unlike others he doesn't have sheep sitting in the class. Students, grown men, scholars, speak up and ask questions at random times. The noble sheikh answers them without minding. This is very unlike the the cult leaders who disparaged him:

  4. snaqshi

    snaqshi Active Member

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    I have heard that if a pir/shaykh contravenes share3ah, then you should not sit in his company leave him and find another shaykh, who is more paaband, is that correct?
  5. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    This lecture has some interesting points relating to Pir and Murid. Nothing from Quran and Sunnah but anecdotes about the relationship between a Murid and Pir. It shows how Yaseen is a sheep to Yaqoubi and is more than happy to make others sheep:

  6. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    The Pir and the murid are confused. In the following video he admits Shaykh Buti was under duress of the regime:


    Yet Shaykh Buti was not excused.

    Hamza Yusuf is a different story to Shaykh Buti.. These are the questions that Yaseen is ordering the murids not to listen to and block their ears to.
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  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    some not all, are sareeh kufr beyond tawil, and yes they are tamperings - like the saying that mark hanson tries to hang on to in his "who are the disbelievers?" that the hellfire will actually become comfortable for its dwellers since they will become "fire-like". this is sareeh kufr and beyond tawil, directly contradicting muhkam verses and ahadith, and i think Imam Abdul Wahhab Al-Sha3rani proved it as a tampering. but that won't stop mark hanson from quoting it, or his quoting ibn taymiya that hellfire will be extinguished.

    the point is that it's beyond pathetic to bring in obscure sayings that can or can not be attributed to Sunni scholars (Shaykh Al-Akbar or others) or heretics (ibn taymia and others) to support an argument that contravenes direct verses of Quran and established articles of creed.

    the aim of people like hanson and yaqoubi is for people to forget the Quran & Sunnah and just take their word as the Shari3ah.

    the other extreme is wahabism.

    the aim of wahabism is for people to forget the REAL akabireen and the ahlul 3ilm of the ummah (the inheritors of the Prophet 3alaihis salam) and just design your own manhaj according to your whims, all under the illusion of following Quran and Sunnah, even when you are dumber than a rock and can't even read Sahih Bukhari's table of contents! (recently on 10th Muharram, an idiot at work told the guys who were fasting that this fast isn't proven by hadith! i was too busy having my iftar, or i would have certainly given him a rock solid piece of my mind!) they don't mind it, but rather appreciate if you remember their personalities

    the sufi cults of people like yaqoubi and hanson on the other hand want people to be shakhsiyat parast, completely forgeting the Quran and Sunnah, just taking them as the living mouthpieces of the Shari3ah. (almost exactly like how the catholics believe the pope to be the only living apostle of Christ, and damn care about opening their eyes to any such thing as reality, critical thinking or common sense. the pope can legalize zina for them and they wouldn't bat an eyelid!)

    in both cases, the Muslim is furthered away from Quran and Sunnah, due to insane blind following of jahil personalities, even though the means, psychological programming, and rhetoric that the 2 extreme groups employ might be as different as chalk and cheese.

    our deen is moderation. both these deviants, the wahabis, as well as the dirty hippy sufis are misguided.

    we respect and revere and take interpretation from our akabir BECAUSE we keep our eyes open to the Quran and Sunnah, not in spite of it! (this one argument simultaneously works against both wahabis and the dirty hippies too)

    if you note their effect on politics and political inclinations, you will see this senseless extremism

    one side is a supporter or wanton terrorism against Muslims and kafirs alike
    the other side is a naked mureed of the vatican and other present day enemies of Islam (aka secular democracy & capitalism)

    your average Sunni Muslim will be neither.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
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  8. Abu Hamza

    Abu Hamza Hanafi-Maturidi

    Not really, the "sayings" which are attributed to Shaykh ul Akbar are sareeh kufr and beyond tawil, this is what the likes of Sh.Saeed Fouda have said, the only defence in this regard is that the works were tampered, which according to Fouda is also far fetched.

    Allah knows best.
  9. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

  10. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

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  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my point is to keep issues separate, as people have short memories and even shorter intellects; they quickly mix up apples with oranges and give you watermelons.

    let me try reworking yaqoubi sahib's naSiHah...
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    million dollar post.

    that's all it boils down to.

    popularity contests and fan-club culture.

    it's not about who's right or wrong.

    it's about growing your fan-clubs and income bases.

    that is, is wilayah a God-appointed position in the sense of it being certified open public knowledge like nubuwwah is?
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
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  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    he is a jahil mutlaq. it's surprising how many nafsanic juhala don jubbas and caps and sport beards these days! it was another post where abu Hasan translated a piece from a scholar/Sufi's works and he said "WAllah labors doing their jobs for daily wages are better than such people". it is true WAllah. the random Muslim who cleans your car, who pulls your rickshaw, who works in the sun laying bricks, is better than such hucksters and low-lives pretending to be "men of God" or "students of knowledge".

    the examples he gave from the likes of Shaykh Al-Akbar are not in regards to "actions" but rather "sayings" that have tawil and the Shari3ah says that if a saying has a 100 interpretations and only one points towards faith, we will take it.

    like kattar said, there's no tawil for saying that deen should be censored and restricted to the classroom, or for ibn ubay hanson preaching dante, and other such explicit violations and mockery of deen.

    he says something to the effect of "if a wali does something that seems contradictory to the Shari3ah, we do not say he is above the Shari3ah, but rather we find a suitable way to interpret his actions in light of the shari3ah"

    so basically we just call a spade a shovel. we call bribes as gifts. we call riba as commission. etc etc etc. it's like how some used car salesmen in the usa do not call their merchandise as "car" but rather "automobile" or "vehicle". apparently it has some psychological programming effect on the customer and moves his mind away from the "used" part!

    firstly, he needs to address - just who labeled such and such a man a wali? who appointed him wali? is wilayah a God-appointed position like nubuwwah? what are the criteria required to attain wilayah? is their any Shari3ah specified list stating who is and isn't a wali?

    why do we show this husn az-zdhann only to a person he calls a "wali"?

    what about any random Muslim, Ahmad or Umar or Ali or Farooq etc? do we show the same husn az-zdhann to them if they violate the Shari3ah, and if not why not? if yes, then just how far do we go?

    if a shiite comes and tells us that khomeini is a "wali" and that we should look for exquisite excuses for his various sayings and actions, what do we do? what if a wahabi comes and tells us the same about albani? (they too acknowledge the ayah about awliyaa-Allah, and believe it or not, they consider them as "awliyaa" or "men of God")

    where in the Shari3ah does it state that a wali deserves a husn az-zdhann a cut above the rest?

    yeah sure, you could bring in the event of Musa and Khidr 3alaihimus salam. but Khidr is also a prophet of Allah just like Musa (as in, appointed by Allah), and Musa had specific God-given information and instructions regarding Khidr. 3alaihimus salam.

    where are the specific God-given information and instructions that this or that person is a "man of God" and that this or that "man of God" deserves interpolation and extrapolation for his actions that seem contradictory to the Shari3ah, but the same standards simply do not apply to us poor peasants!

    these certainly are sad times in the world of our "scholarship". we have the all-american used car salesman claiming to be or being touted as - a scholar and mujaddid and wali and ghawth and qutb.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
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  14. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Point not being whether Buti was right or wrong. Point is that it was more fashionable to attack Buti at the time. Its unstylish to even mention Hamza's mistake.
    Whatever thing will have support that is fashionable, not if you think you will lose support.
    As a murid you will not notice the inherent contradictions and a host of other things. Buti has done most damage to ahl asunna, no his not his mujadid, its alright to mention his mistake but spiritual wisdom to approve Hamza. Hamza is a 'faqih' while Buti is jahil. Etc etc

    Iraq invasion had benefits..
    Encourage the Syrian people in their refugee camps but I will stay in my swimming pool mansion in Ribat.
    Yazidis are ahlul kitab because Bin bayah says so. What do 'Barelawis' know with their salwar kameez and ghulab jamans, I order the murids to wear red ties and red elegant hijabs. Leave face veil elegant hijab is the way and purple suits.

    O yeah, and muridniya can travel in convoys without mahram as it alnafr alaam and jihad. Trim the beards its not wajib. Lifes not limited to Fatawa Rizwiya.

    O yeah. His ghawth or qutb and this is suluk.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2014
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    perchance, if you read that in english, i am sure someone who writes on this forum is responsible for it.

    that piece itself is a valid argument (ignoring specific comments about sh.bouti which we assumed that sh.yaqoubi was faithfully reporting). also, shaykh sabouni's scathing critique of sh.bouti bolstered that argument. Allah ta'ala knows best and inasmuch as sh.bouti's own stand "supporting" bashar and his army of orcs, giving them lofty titles - those things are difficult to justify and i do not see any reason to contradict sh.yaqoubi in that specific matter. however, whether it was wise to rise against the regime in those circumstances? Allah ta'ala knows best, but in hindsight, it only made the lives of muslims (and sunni scholarship) worse-off. we ask Allah ta'ala to forgive us and

    concerning advice to elders, everything holds valid - even for sh.yaqoubi.

    we are not upset with sh.yaqoubi for syrian politics - rather, his support and admiration for hamza yusuf who is a perennialist. thus, indirectly endorsing perennialism or at least turning a blind eye to this major fitnah. i wonder what sh.yaqoubi has to say about adnan ibrahim; someone should ask him. and also about tahir jhangvi of pakistani origin - the outright jahil and mini-dajjal.

    or is it not his duty to comment on any of these?

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  16. Exposition

    Exposition Active Member

    Wah Wah Kattarsunni, seems like yaseen is just digging his head in the sand. Even if he is correct in saying that hamza has done rujuu, their are a whole host of other issues, some of which you mentioned.

    I remember reading Shaykh yaqoubis comments about Shaykh Ramadan al Bouti on facebook , I was quite disgusted, he made it seems like Bouti was any tom dick and harry, claimed he was unfit to do itjihad, said that he given fatwas saying it is jaiz to watch porn(which happens to be untrue)

    Kattar you touched on Politics, I don't even want to go there. His political game was such a screw up anyone with a little sense and background in politics could have seen that.
  17. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Yaseen would think like this: Of course there is nothing wrong with the Shaykh attacking seniors like Shaykh Buti. Or correcting Mufti Hassoun. But you parochial 'Barelawis' can't see the wisdom why the Shaykh is silently advising and correcting Hamza.

    And it definitely is not a case of the Shaykh needing Hamza. O no! Hamza needs the Shaykh! Don't you see that Hamza has retracted and regrets his ways? By the Shaykh advising Hamza he can tap into a larger audience for murids and money. American Muslims are a cash cow waiting for exploitation.

    One murid said the Shaykh's silence is like Abdullah bin Umar radiALlahu anhuma giving bayah to Yazid!!!

    Of course that wasn't the case with Shaykh Buti!! Unashamedly Yaqoubi attacked Shaykh Buti even after his death on BBC. But you 'Barelawis' are myopic and Don't understand.

    Shaykh Yaqoubi favours the invasion of Iraq and thinks that was a good thing as well. But what will you 'Barelawis' understand of 'the Imam of the east and the west'.

    Of course I will follow him on fiqh rulings on women travelling without a mahram and a host of other things, Don't you narrow 'Barelawis' know his greater than Imam Sharani and Imam Ahmad Raza??

    O Yeah. And Syrian revolution isn't a mistake. Don't you know Shaykh has a battalion within the FSA and influences them?

    Not to mention that Imam Mahdi will appear after American air strikes and the Shaykh doesn't Claim he met Mahdi but neither does he deny it.

    By the way Shia sources say Mahdi will have a red beard. We do not say his Mahdi but if he is you 'Barelawis' have a lot of grovelling to do...and Hamza maybe his general...

    But at least his ghawth, qutb etc we feel it.

    I definitely can't leave this time, cannot do it twice. It was bad enough with Pir Naseer.
  18. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    What interpretation within the Shariah would be given to a man teaching of Dante 's Inferno? Teaching it like a any other book of literature and making people, a Christian audience, laugh?? Is this not akin to teaching Rushdie's Satanic Verses?

    When he reaches the insulting passage he decides to defend Dante by saying at least he placed the Prophet alayhisalam amongst the schismatics and not the false prophets. So as to say it's not that bad. Schismatic is better than false prophet.

    This person then skips the comments about dragging intestines and excrement etc (refuge is sought with Allah) and says that Dante may have used names similar to that of the Prophet alayhisalam but he meant someone else not to mention Hazrat Ali radiAllahu anhu.
    And that's his defence of Dante.

    The man then continues teaching the book not condemning the passage or the author.

    This recording was first shown by Yaseen to people. Yaseen said it was kufr in his class. Then a Shadhili showed this to others. Yaseen initially said it was worse than Thanawi's comments. Now he claims he changed his mind before he knew of Shaykh Yaqoubi's stance. Now Yaseen claims that Hamas Yusuf has retracted everything.

    He also said Shaykh Yaqoubi phoned Hamza and told him off. Now Shaykh Yaqoubi is touring with Hamza. That would mean that Shaykh is happy with Hamza.

    So the way Yaseen would see it is that everyone is following shariah and you 'Barelawis' are extremists who rip everyone.
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  19. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

    Which Shariah and what Deen?

    or is it a case of Pir e Tariqat rayn dai Shariat?
    1. islam is not the exclusive truth:

    “One of the things our Abrahamic Traditions suffer from is exclusivism. Many of the people who adhere to Abrahamic teachings whether they be Jews, Christians or Muslims, tend to see themselves as having some monopoly on the truth, and monopoly on the truth as far as any real Abrahamic traditions would say would be God’s alone.”

    “If we accept or assume the possibly that He did speak, the divine spoke through these revelations of the Old Testamant, the Older Testament, the New Testament then the Quran, which each one has their claim. If we do accept that certainly God has many voices, and to claim any one voice to be the exclusive voice of God is a very dangerous thing to do.”

    “I’ve been in my share of exclusivist tradition, when I first became Muslim that was the type of Islam I was introduced to… when you begin to look at the nuances of our traditions you find is that they are deeply compatible at those most basic fundamental levels as they are teaching universal truths, and they would not resonate in the millions of hearts if that were not true.”
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  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    What do people make of Sh yaseen here?

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