Indian Muslims vs Pakistani Muslims

Discussion in 'Smalltalk' started by Aqib alQadri, Nov 19, 2015.

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  1. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    I don't think anyone accused you of that, brother Wadood.

    Fine, we are all on the same page.

    that is why, in my reply to brother Ghulam I wrote that brother Wadood should have written "the Keralite Muslims live in peace and harmony...." . It would have been unambiguous.

    PS: i am NOT from Kerala.

    No it ain't. I did find the words used by you as offensive, and not describing the Keralite Muslims in proper light. And you have already acknowledged your slip. so there is no point in just dragging this further.

    surely, having a lofty character is one of the best ornaments of a Muslim, whether he is a missionary or not.
    I think all of us are on the same page, and have well understood these simple things.
    before anyone thinks that this is a "personal spat" between forum members, I suggest that the mods pin this thread.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Wadood that talk is specifically in the context of proselytizing that call people to Islam/Sunniyat with good manners.

    of course in this day and age, merely correcting a mistake or disagreeing with the status quo or stating the politically incorrect obvious is considered bad adab by the enlightened "Muslims" of the west, much more than the kafirs. there's a different hikmah to deal with that.
    Wadood likes this.
  3. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    @Ghulam e Mustafa

    Shaykh Ilyas 'Attari Qadiri on how to deal with non-Muslims in Islam, because we are a missionary people

  4. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    who in this thread is asking for Muslims to be "friends" with Disbelievers ?? me ?? i dont think so.

    The English translation from the Ayah Kareema above uses the word "stern".

    "stern" means

    adjective, sterner, sternest.
    firm, strict, or uncompromising:
    stern discipline.
    hard, harsh, or severe:
    a stern reprimand.
    rigorous or austere; of an unpleasantly serious character:
    stern times.
    grim or forbidding in aspect:
    a stern face.

    i think it is a very apt word to use when Muslims deal with Disbelievers.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  5. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    i have to defend my self because i have shame and ghayrah. so listen please brother. Before you jump to conlcusions, it might be better to ask what i meant by "excellent relations with..." .

    your argument in support of keralites is a twist by you.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
  6. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    I thought my previous post was clear enough; anyway, it is not allowed to be "friends" with disbelievers.

    مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ

    Mohammed (peace and blessings be upon him) is the Noble Messenger of Allah; and his companions are stern with the disbelievers and merciful among themselves (Surah Fath: 48:29).

    I suggest you read the book TAHFEEZ UL IMAAN (in English)
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  7. Ghulam e Mustafa

    Ghulam e Mustafa Active Member

    That's where I am getting confused can you plz explain that we are aallowed or not to do friendship with non Muslims.
  8. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    Brother Ghulam e Mustafa: These (and others) were brother Wadood's words - in what he thought was "praise" of Keralite Muslims (which I made bold and italics) - whereas they contained offensive words. So my comments to him were actually in support of Keralite Muslims, NOT against them.

    Now coming to the particular phrase that you chose to pick (while leaving out other openly offensive ones); brother Wadood should not have written "excellent relations with ...." for that is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an (see reference Surah Mujadelah given below) and that of our Master the Holy Prophet (Allah's blessings and peace be upon him). I know very well that Keralites are mild mannered, peace loving and live in harmony with others. So brother Wadood should have written something like "The Keralite Muslims live in peace and harmony even with christian and hindu countrymen." It is easy to spot the difference.

    لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ يُوَادُّونَ مَنْ حَادَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَوْ كَانُوا آبَاءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَانَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ كَتَبَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمُ الْإِيمَانَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍ مِّنْهُ ۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ حِزْبُ اللَّهِ ۚ أَلَا إِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

    You will not find the people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, befriending those who oppose Allah and His Noble Messenger, even if they are their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their tribesmen; it is these upon whose hearts Allah has ingrained faith, and has aided them with a Spirit from Himself; and He will admit them into Gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding in them forever; Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him; this is Allah’s group; pay heed! Indeed it is Allah’s group who are the successful. (Surah Mujadelah - 58:22)
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  9. Ghulam e Mustafa

    Ghulam e Mustafa Active Member

    The Keralite Muslims had excellent relations with their christian and hindu countrymen too. They live more harmoniously and were more hard working.
    you think these are "excellent" traits?

    Brother aqib does this mean Bad traits?
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in which case, the sampling percentage reduces to 0.05% if you have encountered 150 nasty pakistanis.

    well, you are bound to do that on a forum predominantly visited by indians/pakistanis by saying "indians are better than pakistanis" rather than a qualifying and realistic: "among my acquaintances, the indian muslims i have met are better than the pakistani muslims i have met.."

    because i can say that my pakistani muslim friends are more knowledgeable and religious than my indian muslim friends.

    one of our erstwhile friends did not like the dark people from the south, who munch on idlis...


    why not leave the tag altogether?

    zayd - regardless of being a pakistani, chinese, madrasi, keralite, punjabi etc. is a good muslim.
    amr - even though he is a born canadian is not, say, trustworthy; or: even though born in california, and became a muslim, he is now a perennialist. etc.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  11. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    the moderators can delete this thread if they decide. sorry if i caused offence to anyone
  12. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    i am not a sociologist, and i have never worked on an oil rig, and i finished university in 2013, and no canadian university is owned by the UN. But i do have thousands of Iraqi refugees living in the suburbs at close vicinity
  13. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    He called it " 'ard ". Could be the syrian dialect. its not a theory and its not based on one syrian. Its the truth on the ground generally but there are exceptions. tribal mentality is dominant in most of Syria. a careful study of the culture there in the different provinces clarifies this. its strong everywhere and in all communities in Syria not just Muslims. Only the Kurds seem to be lax to a lesser degree and the Turkomans. This is also the case in most of the Arab world except Egypt
  14. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    the Pakistani population in Canada is more than 350,000.
  15. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    yes brother, i should think three times before opening my mouth, forgive me please
  16. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    you think these are "excellent" traits?

    is this not contradictory?
    seriously, brother Wadood, you need to think many times before you write about any community or generalize about them.

    BTW, surprisingly, you seem to have first hand knowledge about almost everyone, located anywhere. How come???
    IMHO, this forum is not to discuss about which "community" is superior.
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you probably mean: `ird عرض

    so your theory is based on one syrian.

    end of story.

    'ground realities': who defines that? what is the yardstick? what is the sampling size?

    'shown me': a sociologist working on an oil rig in a canadian university owned by the UN that regularly has iraqi refugees on the campus?

    'more bad': what is bad? stealing, lying, treachery, unfaithfulness, rudeness, etc.? and if a few people say are bad can you thrown paint on the entire group?

    apparently, there are about 155,000 pakistanis in canada (citizens, residents, both?) according to wikipedia.
    so if you have been unfortunate to encounter 155 'bad' pakistanis, that would still be 0.1% of the population (not considering your visits to various countries on various missions thereby interacting with theoretically millions of pakistanis pegging it as a satisfactory sample).

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  18. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    what i found is that a Keralite Muslim does not feel ashamed of running a cold store [ a convenient store for us in North America ], or sweeping the floor, or wagging his tail for the arab boss. They are submissive but still hold to their dignity inside. However, i found the majority of the Pakistanis with their noses high up in the sky, upbeat, thinking of themselves as gold. yes some were sweeping the floor, but the other Pakistanis despised them as being lowly from a low biradari. Also, the Pakistanis were not united among themselves like the Keralites. There was a lot of infighting among the Pakistanis. The only major infighting i found among the Keralites was between Sunni and Wahabi. Even the Punjabi Pakistanis were not united among themselves. The Keralite Muslims had excellent relations with their christian and hindu countrymen too. They live more harmoniously and were more hard working. These were my observations.
  19. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Brother AbdalQadir, i understand that there are good and bad in all ethnic groups. But ground realities have shown me that some groups are more bad than others.

    We think that Syrians are the most educated of the Arabs and most cultured. But i did not find this generally speaking. The level of jahal in that country was mind-boggling. There was so much irrational stuff, and anti-islamic, in that country that it has now permanently changed my perception of that group of Arabs. Forget the Citadel of Aleppo, or the fountains of Ma'arrat an Nu'man. The syrians of today are not the arabs of the past. We should come out of the history books and look at reality.

    i will tell you an incident that happened with me recently. my schedule was to meet a mechanical engineer refugee Syrian from the University of Aleppo. i thought, oh wow, a chance to meet a professional from there, but then he said something that i just couldn't believe a sane educated person like him, going through the war, would say. In explaining the meaning of the Arabic word " 'ard ", he said it is also used for a " man's " honour in Bilad al Shaam in the case of his household women. i know this tribal jahali law passed by the hashmi king of jordan during British mandate. it asked for a lenient 6 month jail sentence for a man who killed a woman from his household for dishonoring the family for a variety of reasons not just the often quoted extra-marital relations.

    what really scared me was the gesturing of this evil syrian man. he was casually telling me that if someone from my family would do such a thing, you would kill her [ and he was running his finger across his neck to show me how to do it ], and then you would go to the jail for 6 months and come out. i told him this is jahal, its the responsibility of the Qadi to determine, according to the Shari'at with four witnesses, to prove extra-marital relations. The individual cannot take capital punishment in his hands and that this is murder and the man should be killed too if found to be guilty of murder of that woman. The syrian became really agitated and said you have your opinion and that he has his. i thought, oh my, does this arab really believe in killing and subjugating women ? i asked him why not slit the throat of the guy involved in the extra-marital affair. How come he is let go and honour is just doped on the woman ? The woman is not your property you donkey.

    But honestly, these arabs are still dominated by tribal jahil thinking, which is common among Afghans and some Pakistani Pakhtoon and Baloch too to a large extent but less than the arabs and the afghans.

    200 Palestinian women are killed every year in the West Bank for honour, but i never hear 200 men being killed for honour. i cannot understand how in the world can these people subjugate the weaker women to such an extent.
  20. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    that is indeed a "massive" over generalization.

    I am not taking sides - but having spent a good 2 decades in the "khaleej" - I can well say that the mother-tongue attracts more brotherhood than does religion.

    sad times.
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