Istigatha-Madad mangna

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Ghulam Ali, Sep 6, 2021.

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  1. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Well-Known Member

    this is mentioned here

     
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  2. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    جزاك الله خيرا for the answer and quick response

    نفعنا الله بك

    it is clear that it is not shirk, am I correct in understanding it is jaiz to ask ghawth al-a'azam for matters such as a child, causing rain, curing illness?

    apologies for any inconvenience.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is incorrect.

    there is nothing that happens except by His permission. "certain things which only Allah can do" can be interpreted in many ways and it is badly phrased.

    the statement probably would read better as: "certain things no one can be attributed with and creation is certainly one of them".

    "only Allah can do" is a badly worded statement which can be twisted to mean, there are things that others can also do, which implies independent agency, al-iyadhu billah.

    anything anyone does, is by the power granted by Allah. there is nothing anybody can do without the permission of Allah.

    ----
    concerning the other part: "can you ask someone for a child, causing rain, curing illness?"
    and the corollary: "is it shirk - assigning partner to Allah - if you ask someone for a child?"

    the answer is: if it were shirk, then why would the arch angel say: "i will bestow upon you a virtuous son"
    if you say: "it is by the permission of Allah"
    the answer is: "who said ghawth al-a'azam gives independently?"


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
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  4. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    Didn't the father of Shaykh al-Akbar Ibn Arabi (radhi Allah anh) ask Ghaus-e-Azam (radhi Allah anh) for a child?
     
  5. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    i was recently asked whether it is permissible to ask gawth e aazam for a child, with the belief that Allah has granted him ability to bestow children. I have tried to find an answer to this but have been unable to. I know it would definitely be permissible with the belief that he supplicate to Allah for us.

    this question goes back to the fact that there are certain things which only Allah can do and be asked for, creation is certainly one of them, but what about bestowing a child, causing rain, curing illness etc?
     
  6. How do you know anyone is guaranteed Jannah unless its revealed in a dream through the Holy Prophet SalAllahu Alaihi Wa Sallim. You are asking for a Dua from a Person who is said to be close to Allah so unless they can prove this is Haraam and of course they can't they should accept the practice. If they say, you can make dua yourself, then you can say yes I can but I also want other better people to make dua for me also. Again prove that asking others for Dua is not allowed (simply put they can't).
     
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  7. Brother Umar, can I recommend you have a red bull and chill please. Your dad won't eat you in your sleep for being a Sunni (well I hope not). The pillar Hadith on the subject of the Friends of Allah is this one: Verily Allah (Glorified may he be) has said: ‘Whosoever shows enmity to a wali (friend) of Mine, then I have declared war against him. And My servant does not draw near to Me with anything more beloved to Me than the religious duties I have obligated upon him. And My servant continues to draw near to me with nafil (supererogatory) deeds until I Love him. When I Love him, I become his hearing with which he hears, and his sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him; and were he to seek refuge with Me, I would surely grant him refuge.’ ”

    So one can distinguish the Friends of Allah Most High with their signs- they have an incredible ability to obey Allah and His Messenger SallAllahu Alaihi Wa Sallim, they perform every act of worship far more than the average Muslim and when they raise their hands and ask Allah they are given. This is the necessary foundation signs of the Friends of Allah with additional signs after this proven from the Shariah such as inspired insight called Firasa- "Beware [be conscious]of the firasah of the believer, for he sees with the light of Allah", impeccable Character, miracles (see Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Asif Bin Barkhiyya who brought the Throne of Bilqees). So if one satifies these criteria then he will be classed as a Friend of Allah. At the very least one cannot deny the ranks of the elect such as the Abdaal where all the reports on this added together strengthen the grading to at least Hasan if not Sahih (the principle of strengthening weak Hadith with other multiple chains and narrations is called Hasan Li Ghairi). Then you have a number of high ranking Scholars saying they thought so and so was one of the Abdaal recorded in their books.

    You quote "they say go direct, Allah is all Hearing, closer to you than your jugular vein"

    “And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.” (Qur'an 4:64)

    Ibn Kathir records an incident where a man quoted this Verse at the Blessed Grave of the Holy Prophet SalAllahu Alaihi wa Sallim and was given glad tidings of being forgiven by Allah (see his tafsir under the quoted Verse above)

    You quote "Also they say there is no evidence for going to Dargahs , if it was such an important thing to do then the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa Sallam would have taught us about it."

    Short answer is that the reason people visit a Dargah is to visit the Grave so , He SalAllahu Alaihi wa Sallim did in one respect advise on this when He SalAllahu Alaihi Wa Sallim Said- "I forbade you from visiting the graves but now you should visit them" . When you go to Medina you say Salaam to the Holy Prophet SalAllahu Alaihi Wa Sallim- His is the Greatest of all Graves SalAllahu Alaihi wa Sallim.
     
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  8. faqir

    faqir Veteran

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  9. Ghulam e Mustafa

    Ghulam e Mustafa Active Member

    One incident happened with me when I was prayed dhuhr from a jamate islami or tabhleeghi masjid, two people are staring at me and called, the conversation happened like this,,
    Wahabi - Assalamu alaikum
    Sunni (me) - Walaikum assalam
    Wahanbi - enquired my name and told me I thought you are kafir??
    Sunni - shocked why.
    Wahabi - You are wearing a taweez.
    Sunni - how I became kafir
    Wahhabi - you believe in taweez not in Allah how can non living thing can cure you.
    Sunni - oh then if you had fever or any illness what do you do??
    Wahhabi - I take tablets medicine
    Sunni - Are you not believing in medicine than Allah, how can you call kafir when the same thing is done by you.

    Wahhabi - leave that matter if our imam was there he surely rplyed u. After that they enquired about my job and other things..
     
  10. Ghulam e Mustafa

    Ghulam e Mustafa Active Member

    Brother just ask some simple question. What's ur father name?
    He says something like zaid?
    Ask him how do you know that zaid is your father? What's proof that he's ur father??
    Then he surely says that I believe in my mother's word or fathers word or family members ( that Muslims surity accepted)??
    Tell him that Muslim ummah is saying that he is Wali of Allah then how can you deny when you can't deny the basic thing related to you. ???
    At last if he didn't accept what you say, say him bring DNA report that ur really your father's son otherwise I do not believe.

    If any wahabi doesn't accept what you show as proof from Quran and sunnah, cross question them confuse them they'll not come to you next time for argument.
     
  11. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    They say how do you know a person is a Wali, you don't know for sure whether they are or not, you don't know what their condition is in their graves. And if their souls are in Jannah or in the bodies of green birds under the Arsh as is the case for the Shuhada, then why would they stay in their graves to help people?

    And SubhanAllah it is true, we have no way of knowing of what status our deeds hold before Allah yet we know without doubt that the Most Beloved of Creations SallAllahu Alayhi wa Sallam holds the highest status before Allah and the other Ambiya Alayhim Salam hold very high ranks with him too.

    Yet the Wahhabis understand this to be a weakness in our Tawakkul in Allah, that we do not have complete Tawakkul in him and so have to turn to others when He says ask me and I will give, they say go direct, Allah is all Hearing, closer to you than your jugular vein.

    Also they say there is no evidence for going to Dargahs and asking from Quran and Sunnah, if it was such an important thing to do then the Prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa Sallam would have taught us about it.

    If you could provide answers with evidences JazakAllah Khair, they will not accept anything without references.
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is a SaHiH hadith in bukhari that talks of three men who did tawassul of their deeds.
    so the wahabi does not deny doing tawassul of one's good deeds

    what is the guarantee that your deed is accepted and is not full of riya and is mardud?
    then how can you do tawassul with those deeds?

    ---
    nevertheless, what stops you from doing tawassul and istighatha of Prophets? because we know that they are guaranteed to be in jannah?
     
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  13. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    One objection used by Wahhabis and the like is that how do you know the inhabitant of the grave is guaranteed Jannah?

    How would you reply to this?
     
  14. Whatever is good and permissible in the sight of the Truth Most High can be requested from His Most High's Friends. Here are some guidelines on this:

    • Go with a pure intention of obtaining blessing.
    • Purify yourself internally while purifying yourself externally with minimum Wudu- better still Ghusl and Wudu.
    • Refrain from going until your spirit has dominated your ego (fast when you go). When you find your condition acceptable insha Allah then wear simple clothing that is clean and then approach.
    • DO NOT HARM ANYONE.
    • Go with the intention that when you are there that Allah safeguards other people from your evil NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND
    • Before you ask Allah for your need and use the Saint as a Waseela, ensure that the correct Adab of Dua is maintained- begin with Praise of Allah, Salawat, mentions Allah's names, ask for those things most pleasing to Allah FIRST that are mentioned in Narrations such as Peace and well being (before you mention your need)
    • When requesting you must be ready to accept that Allah's decree is supreme and be happy with what He Decrees REGARDLESS.

    As for tying thread, then it is symbolic- it's essence is "if Allah grants me a child, I will put the child in the service of Allah" denoting a promise to undertake something pleasing to Allah should the Dua be accepted. asking to give something in charity FIRST and then (for the person) to request help is reported from Shaykh Habib al Ajami in the Tazkiratul Awliya (Allah have Mercy on His Soul).

    It is adab to first give something first then ask Allah because one's dua is more readily accepted after you offer Salat not before. This is subtle point for those who have any understanding on how to Approach Him Most High.

    Allah Knows Best
     
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  15. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Another thing, what kind of things are we allowed to ask them for? Is there an extent to which one can ask? For example, to be cured, for success in exams, for for a child, for a certain gender of a child, what about mannats and tying threads at their mazaars?
     
  16. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    JazakumAllah Khair bros
     
  17. As for the Friends of Allah, then it is well known that they have the ability to do certain things from their grave. In fact even normal Muslims are afforded certain rights in their graves. Imam Suyuti (May Allah Have Mercy on Him) authored a book related to the states of the deceased and the grave. Therein is a chapter entitled, “Presentation of the deeds of the living to the deceased” [Suyuti, Sharh as-Sudur]. Here are two Narrations from it:
    He relates: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Certainly your actions are presented to your close relatives and kinsfolk from amongst the deceased. So, if your actions were good, they are delighted by it and if they are other than that – they say, “Our Lord, do not cause them to die until You guide then like You guided us.” [Imam Ahmad: Musnad from Anas with some weakness in the chain or narration]

    Abu Ayyub (Allah be pleased with him) said: “Your actions are presented to the deceased. If they see good they are happy and delighted and they say this if from Your immense favor upon your servant so complete it. If they see evil they say,” Our Lord reject it!”. [Ibn Mubarak: az-Zuhd with a sound chain, Ibn Ibi Dunya: al-Munamat]

    He relates from an-Nʿumān bin Basheer, who said: “I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) say, “Fear Allah regarding your brothers from the inhabitants of the grave for certainly your actions are presented to them”.[al-Bayhaqi: Shuab al-Iman, Ibn Ibi Dunya: al-Munamat]

    One also looks at the Hadith that recommend giving the Salaam to the deceased Muslims and concludes with all this that if Allah has given general Muslims and family members this ability of making dua and responding , then what about the elect?

    Allah knows Best
     
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  18. The other thing to note on this is that it was accepted by all among the first generations right through to ibn taimiyya who was the first to object to it (despite a clear cut ruling from His own Imam - Imam Ahmad allowing it which he evens mentions only to go against it). As we all know when the verdict of someone 700 years after contradicts with the verdict of the Salaf the verdict of the Salaf takes precedence. Ask dissenters to show you a clear verdict against tawassul from the first three generations and if they can't then ask them- who is more important, the Salaf or ibn taimiyya
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
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  19. http://www.sunnah.org/events/srilanka/tawassul__details.htm

    This covers most of the evidences for TAWASSUL

    The biggest thing to note is the Qur'anic Verse asking us to go to the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) to obtain Allah's Forgiveness and the account of the Bedouin Arab visiting the Holy Prophet after He (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) left this world.

    The accounts in Tarikh on this topic are large through multiple chains of transmission as in the above example I mentioned.
     
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  20. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

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