Kafir vs Kafir

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Ghulam e Mustafa, Nov 24, 2014.

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  1. Ghulam e Mustafa

    Ghulam e Mustafa Active Member

    while we can eat the animal slaughtered by christians and jews, we cannot eat the animal slaughtered by a murtad or a zindeeq. while we can marry a christian or jewish woman, we can't marry a murtad or zindeeq woman.

    Can we marry Christian/Jews ?
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother, can you give a reference for this please?
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    yes but context defines everything.

    there are those kafirs who like to assert their superiority on others and those who think of Muslims as slaves or themselves as more superior and enlightened, and behave with that "saab" attitude, and it's not just whites from europe or n. america. it also includes many hindus and sikhs in inida who see themselves as having received enlightenment and Muslims as backward ragheads. basically all those people that hanson and jifry etc kiss up to as their masters. appeasing such "people" is a crime.

    then there's your everyday folks who are away from the politics of hate, you see them at work and in 'life in general', your average family people basically. you can be courteous to this kind. this group is increasingly becoming smaller and smaller thanks to the media propaganda, the actions of the wahabi terrorists, and then the kissing up of the perennialists.

    don't forget that in these times mark hanson and his perennialist ilk preach that the bulk majority of nonMuslims in the world are people who are nonMuslims but not kafir, and they will attain salvation, while only a handful of people like firawn and abu jahl and abu lahab are kafirs. so in these times, it would probably be wajib to call a kafir as kafir in order to make sure ignorant folk don't get misled by perennialists, regardless whose feelings it hurts. for that matter, even reading the anti-idolatry verses of the Quran or the verses describing their state in hellfire - something they can easily see online - will hurt them.

    Ala Hazrat also lauded the slaughter of cows in india as preserving the signs of Islam. going by this analogy in these times to counter the menace of perennialism and tahirism, Muslims should call kafirs as kafirs.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alahazrat has also said that if a kafir would be offended by the term 'kafir' it should be avoided.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  5. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Dr Tahir teaches that hindus SHOULD not be called kafir at all. They can be given jannah.

    He is worse than deobandis.
  6. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I believe that is the main point. To be fair to the deobandis, they did say the word kafir is valid for hindus, but should not be spoken out in public as it would hurt the hindus [ considering their communally sensitive area of Harayana, western UP, the most anti muslim region in india ]

    but, they don't think about hurting the feelings of Sunni Muslims by calling them mushriks, biddatis, qabar poojaari

    They are lions within house, and mice outside
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  7. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    personally, i've not seen tahir say that kafirs like hindus will enter jannah. if you have a reference, please share it.

    as for big chunks of people, sheer force of numbers does not acquit anyone of charges of sareeh and open apostasy or support of it.

    the qadianis and ismailis too are in a few million, but they're all still kafirs.

    all those who know of tahir's apostasy and still support him are kafirs, doesn't matter how many they are or who they are.

    it's not just a Sunni position, but even the position of non-apostate mubtadi3s (who have bid3ahs on other matters) that kafirs don't go to jannah. it's because the Quran says it as openly as possible.

    there is no such thing as ulama or pirs with tahir. anyone who knows tahir's apostasy and is with him, he is a kafir just like him, much less a Muslim scholar or pir.

    having respect for our ulama does not make tahir's supporters Muslims (talking about those who are aware of his apostasy)

    just as the tabarrai shias supposed love or respect of Imam Hussain radi Allahu 3anhu does not make them Muslims, or the christians supposed love of Sayyidina 3isa 3alaihis salam does not make them Muslims

    husn az-zdhann cannot be given to those whose positions you know. it can only be afforded to someone whose positions you don't know, like maybe a random stranger on the street or some shaykh in a mosque who appears Sunni. if you know for a fact someone is minhaji or qadiani, there's no such thing as husn az-zdhann for him.

    those who know of tahir's apostasy and support him (which increasingly, is pretty much anyone who supports him now illa ma sha Allah some who may not know about his apostasy), are the latest fad in apostasy - they should be treated just like the qadianis. pakistan should pass a similar law against them counting them as a non-Muslim minority

    they shouldn't be permitted to call themselves Muslim. their places of worship shouldn't be called mosques. they shouldn't be allowed to sell their meat to Muslims, they shouldn't be permitted to marry Muslims, they shouldn't be permitted to say As-Salam Alaikum so that people are misled into thinking they are Muslims, etc.
    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi likes this.
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    long long before TQ became internationally notorious, a sizable number of Pakistani scholars had issued a fatwa against him. I am not sure but I think he was charged with apostasy. The movement was spear headed by the noble scholar Mawlana Moinuddin Bharmal (rahmatullahi'alayhi) and his name occurs at the top of the list of scholars who had signed this fatwa. My info comes from a Mufti who has his info from another scholar who has seen this fatwa with his own eyes. Unfortunately the fatwa didn't became famous or perhaps was cleverly hushed up/neglected and as luck would have it tahir managed to propel himself to international notoriety before people could wake up to him.

    Mawlana Bharmal sahib was a konkani originally from the city of Bhiwandi, Maharashtra and had migrated to Pakistan. He was a khalifa of Mufti 'Azam ('alayhirrahmah) and the older ones among his close relatives who still live here recall a moving incident which occurred during one of his visits to his home town. They relate that one day Mawlana was restless and kept looking towards the door as though expecting someone when lo and behold! who should appear on the threshold but Mufti 'Azam ('alayhirrahmah) himself! He ('alayhirraHmah) informed Mawlana Bharmal that he was on his way to an event and was passing from outside the town when he felt an intense desire to see mawlana even though he did not know that he had arrived from Pakistan!

    The Bharmal family is well-known here in Bhiwandi and in Pakistan (I think it's Lahore) a shrine has been erected on Mawlana's resting place. Perhaps Pakistani brothers can throw more light on this blessed personality.


  11. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Personally, i had a soft spot for my people in iran for years. But now i don't. Iranian Shi'a are the most liberal and tolerant of ALL twelver shias in the world [ while lebanese and gulf arabs or the ruling mullahs are on the other extreme ] But, all twelver Shi'a in Iran know about Sunnis. This is because Sunnis are a huge population in Iran. Yet they choose to remain twelver with kufr beliefs like Imam Husayn alaihissalam being higher in status than all of the Prophets except RasoolAllah salAllaho alaihi wa alihi wa sallam, and Hazrat Ayesha being a non-Muslim, and rejection of Hazrat Abu Bakr raDyAllahu anhumaa, and even believing that the Qur'an al Kareem has been tampered with.

    Most of them know this, while their propagandists on the net and in the media hide some of these facts to appear as Muslim. But in their hearts they know the truth. Its taqiyyah.

    Now i don't believe they should be given Husn Dhann
  12. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    i guess you mean the die-hard staunchest supporters of dr tahir around the world [ most of whom are Pakistani ] who number no more than a couple thousands, many of whom are involved in the media.

    Pakistan has a different situation to india with respect to the dr tahir perennialist fitnah. In Pakistan there are like 10 million local followers of Dr Tahir, and perhaps another 10 million admirers. A big chunk of these people know about his activities with Christian minorities in Pakistan, activities in india, europe, and north america, and about his belief of non-Muslims like hindus entering jannah. They are aware of the Sunni position that kafirs would never enter jannah but still support dr tahir due to being brainwashed. Lots of Sunni ulama and pirs are with him in Pakistan, perhaps because they are of bad character and do not deserve to be ulama or pirs. Also a big chunk of the middle classes. However, most of these people have great respect for traditional Sunni ulama like Maulana Shah Tarab ul Haq Qadri of Karachi, and are supporters of Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqi RA and Maulana Kaukab Okarvi

    so, personally i would still be cautious before the serious charge of apostasy hovers over these millions of Muslims

    as Allah Ta'ala wills
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    just as there are levels or categories or darajaat of Muslims, there are levels of kufr and kafirs.

    apostates and zanadiq are worse than regular kafirs and take the staunchest of rulings, much harsher than regular kafirs like christians, jews and hindus.

    we have no prohibitions to engage in worldly matters like buying, selling, cooperating at work projects, etc with regular kafirs like christians, jews, hindus, etc.

    while we can eat the animal slaughtered by christians and jews, we cannot eat the animal slaughtered by a murtad or a zindeeq. while we can marry a christian or jewish woman, we can't marry a murtad or zindeeq woman.

    - all ismailis, they are ruled as apostates
    - all qadianis, they are ruled as apostates
    - the apostates among the wahabis & deobandis
    - the apostates of the shia (and there are many, many of the "usual" shia of pakistan and india are insulters of Sayyidina Abu Bakr and Umar radi Allahu 3anhumaa, and severely damned qaadhifeen; a non-apostate shia is the exception and not the norm, at least in the subcontinent, going by real life observations),
    - all those damned zindeeq apostates who just consider tahir a Muslim despite knowing of his wembley gig or his addressing of the christians as "believers", much less honor and respect tahir knowing of these things,
    - the zanaadiq like those sulah kullis of the time of akbar, all the active and serious proponents of the common word initiative as opposed to those who don't know what's going on but are still a part of it only because they are too busy to read what they're signing (this initiative is really an extension of the vatican's christian crusade work)

    all such "people" are worse kafirs than hindus and jews. they are all more mustahiq al-la3nah than regular kafirs. la3natullaahi 3alaihim ajma3een.

    for fiqh matters like eating their food, all ahle kitab are the same. but in hostility to Muslims, traditionally the jews are stauncher than christians

    depends on a case to case basis on who is how deep into heresy and deception.
    Aqib alQadri and Wadood like this.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but your shayk al-revolution (tahir jhangvi) doesn't think so; he says they are not kafir.
    Jonaid202 likes this.
  15. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    christians jews hindus qadianis are all non-muslims and as for the others then they are muslims and a tiny minority, perhaps, is kafir.
  16. abu Usman

    abu Usman New Member

    Should all Kafirs be treated the same? Should we treat Christians better than Jews?
    Qadiyanis harsher than shia?
    Do we consider Deobandis better than Najdiyya?

    Even though all are kafir, should we offer consessions to those who are closer to Islam than others e.g. Shia vs Hindu?

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