khamr and nabidh - kitab al-ashribah

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by rasheedahmed, Mar 2, 2009.

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  1. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

  2. rasheedahmed

    rasheedahmed New Member

    Alcohol from any source is same chemically and physically

    Assalam O Alaikum

    Ethyl alcohol from the fermentation of sugar from different sources by yeast and synthetic alcohol made from acetylene or ethylene gas has same chemical formula of C2H5OH. The chemical and physical characteristics are same. Ethyl alcohol from fermentation process and ethyl alcohol from ethylene gas has same intoxication quality and they are Haram because they are intoxicant. According a Sunni Islamic scholar, alcohol from any source if used in any food product then that food product is not consider Halal. But he said alcohol from other than grape, date and barley used in personal care products is allowed to use on the body.

    Naturally brewed soy sauce made from soy and wheat by fermentation method contains 2-3% alcohol. Imported naturally brewed soy sauce has to paid excise duty in England because of its alcohol content. A naturally brewed soy sauce from Indonesia has Halal symbol on it. I think this may be due to alcohol from other than grape, date and barley but I am not sure about why they gave Halal status to that naturally brewed soy sauce.

    Our Ulema do not consider a food product Halal if it is made with alcohol containing natural or artificial flavor.

    Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
  3. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    brother, do not take google for your source of fiqh. visit a scholar or what you should be doing is studying from an 'alim, not internet searches.
  4. what have i been reading?
    if you google the words abu hanifa/hanafis and khamr//alcohol you get an awful lot of info. including many academic papers, encyclopedia of islam [leiden], various forums etc. the hadith i quoted were from someone's post on sunniforum but they are hadith and can be easily checked...

    is this book binayah available in english?
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    read al-binayah and you will know.

    choose what suits your current agenda...also, is this your own research?

    i don't know what you have been reading - maybe kN/afzal's grotesque misrepresentations...

    i demand you to present the exact quote. or at least the reference - page, chapter, section...where?

    oh yeah. who do you think are these latter day hanafis? and how later are they?

    kN's raving below is not only poor grasp of fiqh but selective mishmash of quotes from authentic books. something relevant i quoted in reply to he who is deluded that his ignorance is feigned, while in reality, it is deeply embedded :

    jahilta wa lam ta'alam bi annaka jaahilun
    fa man li bi an tadri bi annaka laa tadri?
    wa min a'ajabi'l ashyaayi annaka laa tadri
    wa annaka laa tadri bi annaka laa tadri

    you are ignorant and you don't know that you are an ignoramus
    and how can i make you understand that you don't know?
    and the surprising thing is that you don't know,
    and that you don't know, that, you don't know.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  6. my question is: why did latter -hanafites give fatwas on the ruling of imam muhammad :ra: instead of imam e azam :ra: and imam abu yusuf :ra: ?
  7. some hadith:

    Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Khamr (wine) is from these two trees, dates and grapes.” (Sahih Muslim, no. 1985)

    However, if the alcohol is extracted and derived from other than grapes, dates and barley, then there is a difference of opinion between the scholars with regards to its ruling. Imam Abu Hanifa & Imam Abu Yusuf (Allah have mercy on them both) from the Hanafi school are of the view that it will be permissible to consume such alcohol for medication purposes or to gain energy (and not for pleasure and enjoyment) as long as it does not intoxicate.

    They base their view on the Hadith narrated by Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) stated above. Also, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace is reported to have said: “Khamr (derived from grapes, dates and barley) is in itself unlawful (and impure), and also all the other beverages that reach the level of intoxication.” (See: al-Zayla’i, Nasb al-Raya, 4/306)
  8. well i've been reading up on this and it does seem that the early hanafis defined khamr very strictly so that alcohol made from other than grapes/dates/barley was halal as long as it was not drunk with the intention of getting drunk or so much so that it causes intoxication.

    Fatawa Alamgiri [al Hindiyyah] says the same. It also mentions that Imam Abu Yusuf drank an alcohol drink regularly as it helped him with his digestion i.e. a digestif.

    The reason given for latter day Hanafis adopting a more hard-line stance seems to be 'fear of fitna' amongst the common people. Yet none of them can say it is 'haraam' qat'an.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  9. certainly the likes of Abu Haniifah or Ibrahiim al-Nakhaa'ii are thankfully excluded from the 'we' (no pun intended) since only 'khamr is 'impure' not the alcoholic beverages we know Anas or Ibrahiim drank. I'd certainly share a dram with Anas or Ibrahiim...

    aren't some urines pure? I remember a polemical deobandi contra barelwiyyah tract that cited a companion following Rasool Allah and...well I daren't complete this...

    are Imam al-aini or al-TaHaawi yesterday's ulamaa' what do you mean us to undertand?

    that 'pressing' missive was great and impressiv. thank you.

    cold-pressed extra virgin olive oil and black onion seed what would that be good for?
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    jahilta wa lam ta'alam bi annaka jaahilun
    fa man li bi an tadri bi annaka laa tadri?
    wa min a'ajabi'l ashyaayi annaka laa tadri
    wa annaka laa tadri bi annaka laa tadri

    you are ignorant and you don't know that you are ignorant
    and how can i make you understand that you don't know?
    and the surprising thing is that you don't know,
    and that you don't know, that, you don't know.
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my draught with afzal is far from over; but the linguistic merit of the statement deserves attention:

    hard pressed: they 'press' wines, don't they?

    mu'taSar is a generous person; a person who finds it hard to say 'no', when asked.

    and, then there is the pun: mu'taSir [same spelling] is a person who can select, choose.

    and dram is a fraction of an ounce; in other words, the idiom: 'my two pennies worth..' but a dram is also a small measure of drink as in: 'a dram of brandy.' or 'a bit of something', though the last meaning implying parsimony isn't quite applicable.

    as for me, i take mu'taSir as said in the hadith that RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam 'ordered bilal that the call for prayer be prior to dawn so that people could relieve themselves.' / amara bilalan an yu'dhan qabl al-fajri li ya'ataSira mu'taSiruhum. where mu'taSir is idiomatically used for people who had to relieve themselves. [contemporary: go to the toilet].

    so, we consider beer and whiskey to be impure like urine and today's aalim will hardly share a dram, because.... you know why.
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  12. kein problem, mein schnuckelputz, ich glaube, dass 'ich spreche kein arabische oder Ich kann nicht arabische (sprechen)' stimmt ist! also...

    The lines are from a great mind called 'abu 'alaa al-ma'arri whose language capacity is phenomenal:

    her writes:

    ...and when I saw ignorance in people becoming widespread....

    I feigned ignorance so much so that I was deemed an ignoramus (instead)! (Trans: mine).
  13. sorry ich kann arabische nicht sprachen! (i think thats right!) translate that verse into inglistaani please!
  14. Strawberries, cherries, blueberries (can one get blueberry cider?), and a big raspberry. I daresay plenty of antioxidants to blitz those radicals.

    The sweeter cherries will be left by the wayside.....

    Naqsh mein guter herr, I suspect today's alim will be hard pressed
    ('mu'taSar - gerrit?!) to share any dram with you at all.

    ...lamma ra'aytu l-jahla finnaasi faashiiyyan..tajaahaltu Hattaa Dhunna annanii jaahilu... !

    nush / jam !
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is a verse in arabic that says:
    that which is in hearts, also reflects on lips
    for the tongue is a pointer to the heart
    al-iyadhu billah.
    Ghulaam likes this.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hasty move.

    how can you deduce so soon when you haven't even seen the arguments from our side, that is, the Haram ruling? don't give in too soon to kN's argument - simply because you ain't seen nothin yet.
    Ghulaam likes this.
  17. i think i am going to write to an alim about this and get a fatwa! i mean, if sid KN is correct then it means life in the west would suddenly become easier! cheers mate! :D
  18. having googled a bit on this i found a link from a deobandit site which said that though this WAS the opinion of the early Hanafis the later Hanafites like Haskafi and Ibn Abidin gave their fatawa on the basis of Imam Muhammad's ruling and not Imam e Azam's due to the widespread fitna...

    My personal deduction from all this--not being a scholar--is that to drink non-wine drinks in moderation would be okay but better to leave for piety. of course i could be way off the mark!
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    saith asif:
    no, he is picking strawberries as we will see, inshaAllah...
  20. I read this article by Hajji Gibril - an article I find confusing and patchy is at

    Furthermore Abu Yusuf in his Athar (p. 223-227, 235) and Muhammad in his (p. 142) narrate that al-Nakha`i drank certain types of alcoholic wines and that he narrated the same from Ibn Mas`ud and `Alqama, on the below-intoxication-level principle. Cf. Qal`aji, Mawsu`at Fiqh Ibrahim al-Nakha`i (p. 285-286). In I`la' al-Sunan (18:34): "Ibrahim [al-Nakha`i] said: 'The saying that whatever intoxicates in large quantity then even its small quantity is haram is a mistake of the scholars, it only means that the intoxicating level of any beverage is haram' and Muhammad said: 'This is the position of Abu Hanifa.'" But this seems to contradict what the I`la' earlier stated as the position of the Imam (18:22-23).

    Now what was Ibrahim al-Nakha'i doing drinking 'some types of alcoholic "wines"'?! The athar of Anas is SaHiiH please do read TaHaawi's maa'ani al-hadiith. there gots to be an Urdu trans.

    It's all how you synthesise all of this.
    To your good health.

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