malm sultanpuri?

Discussion in 'Poetry' started by AbdalQadir, May 31, 2021.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    @Surati while I agree with most of you have said I have a few observations to make later on. in sha Allah.
  2. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    May be someone should write a Sharh on his book....:)
  3. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    I’m baffled at this response. Are you saying that the ‘backward Indians’ don’t understand English and are not worth Sh. Asrar’s time? If that’s what you mean, then shame on you. A lot of youth in India have better command and master English more than the average youth here in the UK.

    Are you from the UK? It seems that you’re not familiar with the general language level of young people here.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021 at 10:48 PM
  4. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member


    You’re from India I assume. Surat perhaps?

    In which case I understand your point if your talking about the youth in surat.
  5. Surati

    Surati Active Member


    At the end of the day, this religion is not for a few intellectual people only. Dumbing down is used as a pejorative term but if that is what is needed to reach the youth then why not?
    However, the logic should remain sound. Facts should be accurate. The language should be effective and clear. A difficult concept/idea can and must be explained in simple terms. The idea is to transmit information to everyone even the stupid people.

    If at the end of your bombastic explanation your audience only realises how good your vocabulary is or how very clever you are, then you have missed the point.

    The discussion was about his target audience, not about his topic maintenance.

    I am not saying that his talks are not informative or that we do not derive benefit from it. I personally enjoy his talks as many of us here but I wouldn’t classify myself as being the “youth”.

    I’m speaking for youngsters who have told me they want to listen to him or read his books him but find it tedious to do so.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021 at 10:21 PM
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  6. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Important not to “dumb down the audience”. People are capable of following difficult concepts so long as its explained in a logical manner. Shaykh Asrar often does use technical terms but he always explains/defines these. His talks are also on point and be delves straight in to the topic with no ‘time-wasting’. With many speakers after listening to hamd and salawat I skip the 10 or so mins that follows it
  7. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    Glad we are on the same page. Shaykh Asrar’s target audience is educated adults who have an interest in theology not the “youth” (under 20s) as he would like to think or should be targeting.

    Gen-Z and Millenials read Harry Potter because it is in simple English with an engaging story.

    If you feel the problem is not Shaykh Asrar’s pragmatics then I suggest that as an experiment, you ask the youth and people outside of your circle what they think of his delivery in speech and in writing.

    Have you read Shaykh Asrar’s book? He utilises labyrinthine, arcane locutions to expound his arguments, rendering them tortuous (See, I could have said the same sentence in a much simpler way. A few lines might be okay but the entirety of a book? Tiring. Exhausting even).

    You would appreciate that word choice is integral to the reader's experience as it highly impacts on how the content flows, and on the reader's attention.

    There is no need to hide his amazing ideas/contributions behind such language which puts off the reader. If your reader is having to stop at every other line to ponder on what you mean then they’ll soon put the book down.

    Would it hurt to write the same thing in a simple fashion such that any reader can understand it? Maybe then he would truly be targeting the “youth”.

    I am presuming from your answers that you don’t have kids. AH’s vocabulary in his books is accessible to most teens. Even if there may be some harder words, the way he writes grabs your attention for a much longer time.

    Be like Abu Hasan. Write once, write well.

    Unbeknown likes this.
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, if the situation is really as you say it is, then this could be categorised as a problem unique to gen-z (or whichever letter they are currently on) - otherwise who is consuming all the well-written information scattered across the internet (a lot of it paid as well)?

    I don't think this applies to educated adults - especially if they have lived in the West since birth.

    besides, though some dismiss them as cliché-studded superficial reads, popular fiction (like the Harry Potter series, for example), seems to suggest that the problem is not one of vocabulary or language - but of subject matter, motivation and interest.

    again, I feel that the subject matter and the cultural environment are to blame (or credit, depending on how you take it) rather than the terse voacabulary of those who speak on religion.

    I'd be happy if people "enjoyed" ridawipress titles. afterall, these are well-written.

    But the irony is that, people complain against mawlana's books too. There are those who say that it's difficult to parse them. I have personally received one such feedback.

    If you say that Mawlana's vocabulary is digestible and sh. asrar's is not, then I would again conjecture that the problem lies elsewhere, instead of vocabulary or sentence structure.

    again, an average over that wide a sample space tells us precious little about the actual state of affairs viz a viz the target audience of Anglo-Muslim speakers/authors.

    I don't think that is a fair comparison. Politics is a game of smokes and mirrors - and there are different motivations at play on both sides.

    I ain't saying there is no problem - but I think we need a deeper diagnosis - from several perspectives.

    wa Allahu a'alam
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Yes, most sales courses teach and copywriters know that the average adult's reading and comprehension is at the level of a 13 yr old (school year 8), regardless if you're explaining to them the benefits of iPhone pro max, or if you're explaining to them the Shar3i daleels for the permissibility of chehlum.
  10. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    Nopes, not just legal technicalities, his English in general. For youngsters, I don’t think language is the only barrier. Being engaging to them involves a complex interplay of factors.

    I enjoyed Shaykh Asrar’s book however it is not for a 14-15 year old (whose friend at school is bombarding him with Atheist rhetorics).

    As a contrast, kids can easily understand Abu Hasan’s books. Mastery of a topic’s delivery in writing (especially if your target is the “youth”) entails being able to be easily understood and not break the concentration of your reader.
  11. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    Yup. People are not as “academically oriented” nowadays. Welcome to the world. This was more in relation to his book, btw.

    Hamza Yusuf and Abdul Hakim Murad have the same problem as Shaykh Asrar. Their delivery is more suited to academically oriented young adults/older crowd. Even though all three of them might think they are targeting youngsters (by this I mean younger than 20s when their personalities are forming), that’s not the reality.

    I don’t think it is. However, people in the West have found ways to make topics like LGBTQ, gender fluidity, feminism, and Atheism appealing and palatable to youngsters, including the Muslim youth. Why? And most importantly, how?

    . . .
    Language need not be too complicated to have a profound impact or be engaging. Take politics for example, why do short simple slogans work?
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021 at 2:46 PM
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    As in Shar3i mustalahat? Or in what sense...
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I must confess myself surprised - are we speaking about people in the UK?

    I have heard sh. asrar mention on multiple occasions that his target audience are those youth for whom English is almost a first language - and who don't understand much Urdu. And he often faults speakers who don't deliver in English - despite several decades in the UK - for alienating the youth and/or failing to build a rapport with them, whereas the wahabis have plenty of English speaking "da'ees".

    Besides, how is his language any more polished than say people like hanson or winters?

    also, is this challenge limited to Muslim youth alone - and if so - why?


    Shaykh asrar is among the very few whom I don't just "endure" but actually feel good about - for having them in our midst.

    It would be another disappointment to know that UK sunnis are far below even this level!

    And I feel I have already gathered a truckload of disappointments regarding the intellectual state and tastes of our people - enough to stuff a museum with.
  14. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    My teens tell me that they would love to listen to someone like Shaykh Asrar, but find that his language is too technical. They are highly interested in learning about the topics that he speaks about because they are affected daily by it in school (like Atheism) but just can’t access it. Leave kids, I have even heard adults say that they need a dictionary to understand Shaykh Asrar.
    ماشاء الله he is well read and possesses a sophisticated lexicon, however one wonders what’s the point if his messages are only fully understood by a few clever people.

    The point of speeches/writing is to convey your thoughts and ideas and transfer knowledge, not to put people off. Now, one might argue that these people need to up their vocabulary but how realistic is this, especially if you want to reach out to as many people as possible.

    A good example of this is health professionals who use medical terminology amongst themselves; we wouldn’t expect them to use the same level of language with patients nor tell the patient they need to up their vocabulary but would expect things to be simplified and explained in simple terms so the problem is easily understood.

    If we expect that level of professionalism and care from the doctor of the physical form, should we not expect better from someone who is the doctor of our soul?

    Some other things kids mentioned are length of speeches, monotonous speakers or just plain irrelevant topics being spoken that don’t really affect them.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2021 at 11:25 PM
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and a brother sent me this link:

    these are their stars! the moron does not know that "can do" [bol sakta hai] and qudrat is the same thing.

    ye jo behuda ilzamat hain ma'azAllah
    Allah jhoot bol sakte hain
    ye 100 fee sad ghalat hai
    baaz log aysa ibarat pesh karte hain
    to us ibarat ka matlab ye hai ke
    Allah ko jhoot ki qudrat hai
    qudrat to Allah ko har kaam ki hai

    jhoot bol sakne ka matlab
    bolne ki qudrat hai
    bol sakte nahin hain
    yaani bolte nahin hain

    kyun ke "wa man aSdaqu minAllahi qeelaa"
    Allah se ziyada kis ki baat theek ho sakti hai

    to aysi ibarat ka matlab jis ka sahi matlab bhi nikal sakta hai
    ghalat matlab bhi nikalta hai
    fitna parast log usko ghalat matlab ki taraf le kar jaate hain

    to qudrat to Allah ko har cheez ki hai
    neki ki bhi burayi ki bhi
    lekin Allah burayi nahin karte
    jhoot nahin bolte
    dhoka nahin dete
    qudrat to Allah ko har cheez ki hai
    kyun ke woh qadir e muTlaq hai

    the jaahil also does not know that 'neki burayi' are for you not for Allah ta'ala.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why are you harping on deobandi 'fiqh'?

    the first thing all devbandis have to learn is the correct belief about Allah ta'ala.

    that Allah sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala is transcendent from having a flaw; and that the Speech of Allah ta'ala is not only absolute truth but there is no possibility of falsehood occuring in Divine Speech.

    all the devbandi heretics - no matter how much learning they boast about (their claim...) need to first learn a basic aqidah: the Divine Power of Allah ta'ala is not related to muHalat and wajibat.

    until then their opinion about homosexuality or music is of little consequence.

    also somebody should tell the devbandis the definition of nifaaq.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    actually, upon reading properly, i think that letter can be interpreted differently by the likes of malm.

    they could have done a better job of it had they not been devbandis!


    this is dangerous and has potential to be abused by the likes of malm. the issue of music is not as objective and decisive as mut3ah, gold jewelry for men, and homosexuality, so these can't all be clubbed together!

    and what's "majority" supposed to mean in this context? are there "minority" opinions too on let's say homosexuality? is it the same level of seriousness as eating hyenas? is there any "minority" opinion in Ahlus Sunnah on homosexuality?

    why mention the word extant? did any of the obsolete schools of thought permit such stuff?
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    his alleged alma mater should distance from him by name and not just by offering generic refutations, because he flaunts binoria as far as i know

    zameel doesn't appreciate him
  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I haven't watched it either - but know several people who do.

    Yes it's got be-purdah women. And it poses as a 'sufi' themed series - so quiet an easy target for wahabis to discredit Sunnis.

    There's also a character who plays ibn 'arabic and makes regular appearances.

    But my main grouse is that it detaches people from real-life - there's the invincible protagonist and the 1-Dimensional sitting duck enemy. One flick of the 'axe' and down he goes.

    Real life is difficult and people should be mentally prepared to face it - not break down at the first touch of misery.

    Perhaps a better training would be to watch the gritty people of gaza.

    Allah knows best.
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    this is a good example to refute Hadith deniers and others like them (atabek, malm, atheists et al), without being apologetic.

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