marwan bin hakam and sayyiduna uthman

Discussion in 'Tarikh' started by abu Hasan, Nov 11, 2011.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    wadood is un-banned.
  2. i also second wadood's return and unbanning.
  3. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    I also agree with Sister Zainab's post. Brother Wadood is a good Brother and should be allowed back, rather those who think they know more then Awliyah like Alahazrat RA should be banned. I hope Brother Wadood will be back quickly INSHALLAH!
  4. zainab

    zainab New Member

    Dear Moderator Pls forgive Br Wadood


    Dear Moderator,

    Having read Brother Wadoods post when he called someone 'mal'un' in retaliation.

    I think it was a total reactionary thing, and made in anger. He has realised it was a very bad statement having been a member on Sunniport since the beginning of the website for 7 years.

    I think he should be forgiven and given another chance. I think we have to realise non of us are angels we all make mistakes.

    Inshallah I hope the Moderator and brothers will allow him to come back as a member and to forgive him.

  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    if you really are as wali-like as you portray, then why don't you answer my direct question on the first page of the thread? :) the Ahl Al-Bayt, Sahaba and Awliyaa always answered direct questions and they did not display these signs and symptoms.
  6. yes, sidi abdalqadir, I agree that brother wadood should be unbanned. all that he has said about me, i forgive him and have no hard feelings against him.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    in the spirit of fairness, i think if gg is unbanned, wadood too should be unbanned. wadood only pronounced la3nat on commoners whereas gg pronounced it on a narrator of hadith. i am not taking any sides. some of wadood's post are really cringe-worthy or just plain crazy for me too, but if this thread is all there is to it, i think he should be given the same chance as gg. just a thought, unless of course, you're factoring in other items too, beyond this thread.

    yes. this should probably be made a forum rule as a sticky. for too long now there are these people like gg and aF who needlessly stir the pot, make implications, and make insinuations, and then they flee from any direct questions or directly stating their positions.

    it may be another idea to make a rule that pot stirring is simply not welcome. anyone who has a position should state it openly and give his daleels openly without trying to act too smart by just making cheap implications and engaging in tease marketing. it might help keep the problem stirrers at bay.

    on the tease and reveal phases in marketing. it's about time, all the tease marketers of the forum moved on to the reveal phase.
  8. thanks for the link GG. i am not taking sides, i am trying to learn.
    i have saved the page which GG referenced in fatawa azizi by shah abdul haq muhaddith e dihlavi [fatawa azizi, page 250, MH Saeed Publishers, Karachi 1408 AH] and attached it as a jpeg with the relevant question and answer about Marwan highlighted.

    I will do the exact Urdu transliteration and translation later if someone wants but GG's paraphrase was accurate.

    it seems that, like on many issues, there appears to be a difference of opinion amongst sunni scholars.

    Attached Files:

  9. NJ:



    in fatawa aziziyya, page 250 towards the end of the page, he says that it is from the faraiz of imaan to love ahley bayt not just a requirement of being a sunni and it is from the love of ahley bayt to disparage marwan (alayhi la'nat!!).

    the above is from an urdu tarnslation though in farsi it even more forceful.
  10. i think you know i meant you and gg

  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    well, in that case, good luck with gg and aF.
  12. I never lost my patience but smacking a head against a rock one can do only a certain number of times before realising the futility of it whereas this issue of Marwan I guess is one over which difference exists.

    And I was hoping to learn from two people who know more about Islam than I do.
  13. AH

    You're right I should find out for myself.
    Sorry for asking and taking up your precious time.
    The answer :)

    Watch this space insha Allah.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who said this and where?

    there are narrations, but i will await gg's response (if he can) or aF's. and whoever quotes this narrations should either translate it himself from arabic or should HONESTLY mention that they are copying someone else's translation.

    no one is sweeping it under the carpet. i have better things to do than satisfy idle curiosities or pamper bloated egos.

    strange that you lose your patience when someone questions 'fundamental precepts of physics' and expect people to learn them before arguing against something; but for hadith and such sciences, you expect us to teach everything.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    aF says:
    what fuller picture? real men do not just insinuate. they take a stand.

    i can engage with a person who says, this is my belief and this is my proof; this is what i have derived from this proof and this is how i criticize the other position.

    those who simply cut and paste, or 'mention' snippets, cannot be tackled because they can change tack anytime or turn around saying: 'i didn't say that'. take yourself: other than sneering, what else do you do?*

    take this post of gg; he should have translated the full hadith that he 'mentions' and given the references (he is still welcome to do it) and then mentioned his stand or his objections. those who are upright will not hesitate to mention the jarh of the position they have taken, even if they justify it. that would qualify as a serious discussion.

    imam zaynu'l abidin, ali ibn husayn raDiyallahu ta'ala anhu wa `an aabayihi'l kiram narrated from marwan ibn al-Hakam. [see, bukhari 1563]

    ask yourself, whether imam zaynu'l abidin ali would narrate from someone he considered as mal'un? and cited in bukhari? a couple of ignorant sayyids are of no consequence - real scholars and real sayyids have been reading and teaching bukhari for ages.

    pir abdu'l qadir has disparaged ikrimah, another narrator earlier in a speech. if paq or his murids are so proficient in hadith sciences, all they have to do is pick up hady as-sari and refute ibn Hajar al-asqalani. ibn Hajar explained the narrators of bukhari who were criticized and defended imam bukhari's decision to include their narrations.

    our ulama are candid. they are not hesitant to cite opinions that argue against their own or the standard opinion. for example, dar quTni, a hadith master criticised certain hadith found in the SaHiH of imam bukhari as is well-known. dar quTni is at a level where he can comment on bukhari. you and i cannot even dream of such expertise in hadith. imam ibn Hajar cited and listed all those hadith, and gave explanations for the same in his hady as-sari.

    i mean why don't these guys translate hady as-sari and pick on his arguments, instead of squabbling or expecting answers from students?

    people cite criticism of dar-quTni, and act as if they are themselves smarter than imam bukhari without even mentioning the counter-criticism or explanations in favor of imam bukhari's position. this is intellectual dishonesty at best, and ignorance at worst.


    *on our forum at least.
  16. sidi AH but is it true that many Sunni ulema and prominent scholars have cursed him by name or permitted it such as shah abdul aziz? more importantly is it also true that hazrat abdullah ibn zubayr and hazrat sayyida aisha siddiqa said he was cursed?

    i think it is better to discuss this openly than to sweep it under the carpet as that will only serve to make your argument weaker.
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have banned wadood for calling someone as a mal'un; we abhor such a statement. i would have deleted or edited the post, but that would raise questions. hence i have left his post untouched.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    many brothers freely call other muslims or even tafzilis or (individuals among) deobandis as mal'un. this is what imam ghazali warned against and the example used was that even a vile and wicked fajir fasiq like yazid cannot be considered as mal'un. modern tafizili-inclined people misquote and slander imam ghazali and claim that he did this because of his hatred of ahl al-bayt.

    mustahiqq e la'anat (deserving damnation) is different from mal'un (damned). saying la'anat on a group (of liars, of wahabis, of rafidis, of oppressors) is not the same as cursing someone individually.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ok, un-banned. but i won't answer him.

    you are neither in the sahabah nor the salaf. moreover, you just pick whatever suits you.

    imam ali ibn husayn radiyallahu anhu narrated from him, and scholars of hadith say that: 'inasmuch as his narration of hadith is concerned, he is not to be accused (of wrongdoing)'

    as such, i am not interested in marwan (in spite of whatever accusations other parties may dole out;) but the rafizis and the shia-inclined-tafzilis (or closet rafizis) use this to blame sayyiduna uthman raDiyallahu anhu and plant doubts in the minds of people. or mention such narrators and try to discredit imam bukhari. this is an insidious way of undermining ahl e sunnat.

    we are not scared of these things. our ulama have answered and attempted to reconcile contestable or seemingly-contradictory reports. but the common man does not have the patience or the knowledge to sift through all this.

    gg was not banned ONLY because of cursing marwan; it was just an opportunity.

  19. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    the only thought that came to my mind, when he replied to brother AQ, was to ban that khabees hasnain shah outright. Even brother abu hasan felt it the same.

    hasnain shah is mal'un himself, including his dirty pir, they are dogs of hell fire
  20. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    We at Sunniport know abu fadl and his posts really well. At least be creative abu fadl. Change your posting style.

Share This Page