Mufti Fazl Chisti and his critics

Discussion in 'Siyar an-Nubala' started by sherkhan, Dec 4, 2020.

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  1. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    The brutal reality is that at this moment no one scholarly figure stands out as a leader or as someone that can unite and tackle the ever growing issues of our time. This is why it is so so important that our ulema stop cutting each other's legs off and work together. As @abu Hasan said in a previous post, everyone needs to play their part. Stop doing your own thing and do your bit. That's the only way.

    DI is doing its part for the maslak and doing it well. It falls on our political organisations like Jammat e Ahle Sunnah and Sunni Tahreek to really push the Jalali Sahib issue for example. It falls on the likes of Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman to counter the narrative peddled by the likes of Syed Riaz Shah, Syed Irfan Shah and others.
    Everyone needs to play their part.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is where leadership is lacking.

    these are good ulama and capable individuals but i don't look at them as leaders. it is my opinion. feel free to disagree or dump it.

    capability, charm, qualities, knowledge automatically makes some stand apart from others. people gravitate towards them. but are they 'leaders'? not always. leadership is thrust upon them. and they rally people only upon the goodwill of people.

    leaders should think about the people. actively seek out their problems, genuinely sympathise with them. if you cannot solve their problems, at least try to understand their perspective. AND lead them by showing them the way, being with them and walking in front of them.

    our ulama sit on high pulpits and call out from tall ivory towers. it is difficult to hear what they are saying and for them to get any feedback...

    it is easy to pontificate from the pulpit. emotional speeches, anecdotes and rousing speeches are all fine but in the long term we need solutions for people. blaming the west, blaming the enemies of islam, blaming people for forsaking the sunnah of RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam are not solutions. these could qualify as diagnosis and lament but not solutions.

    there is a tsunami of issues coming our way - and our ulama are blissfully unaware.

    major strides in astronomy, life sciences, robotics, AI and other areas, radical cultural changes, changes in demographics, etc. will unleash a torrent of questions. and on top of this you will face disinformation, propaganda, ruthless assassins disguised as helpful and kind guides (check mark hanson for a real-life example) and internal enemies waiting for an opportunity to pounce upon your iman.

    common muslims need answers. they need guidance. for the times we live in.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Brother Barry likes this.
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    While I sound like being over-critical of DI, I am not trying to belittle its services or fault its positioning.

    At the same time, I realise that DI as an organisation is not geared to check fitna like tafdhilism etc. I know that DI has made lot of effort (going against the grain to raise slogans in favour of Sayyiduna Amir Muawiyah) in its own way. But in times like these, response against likes of Hanif Quraishi, Irfan Shah etc. requires forsaking self-preservation to combat such fitna head-on. Ilk of Dr Jalali, Mawlana Khadim Rizwi, Mufti Fazl Chishti etc. (for all their respective inadequacies) have their own useful role in situations which demand robust response.
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, their reply to that is (from what I've heard) they don't want to appear threatening to any establishment - lest their freedom of movement and operation in various countries around the world be jeopardized.

    They often highlight the fact that the Gov of Pakistan has declared them as a "peaceful" organisation. That, this endorsement allows them to operate freely at home and elsewhere.

    To openly join any agitation or protest movement would invite a swift ban and that would put an end to its da'wa activities.

    They say that they are safeguarding one flank - and remaining pacifist is essential to be able to continue doing so - and hence they should not be dragged into spotlight in activities that have political fallouts.

    They contribute in other ways perhaps - by allowing or encouraging their non-key members to participate in such protests - and perhaps that was the reason that the strict dress code - after years of digging ther heels in the face of criticism - was finally dropped - because DI members could easily be identified in throngs of all sorts. And that might have raised not a few eyebrows.

    These are my surmises.

    Allah knows best.
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I don't disagree with you at all on DI. I have said so in private (with you) and in public on this forum that DI and Mawlana Ilyas Attari's services and accomplishments are exceptional. All I am saying is that saheeh ul-aqeedah ulemas, across the spectrum, need to rise above partisanship and factionalism. If you think harder, so too must DI.

    DI, by being insular (not involving ulemas outside their fold, or inviting them to their platform), makes it harder to be an inclusive platform (which limits its own ability to become a unifying force). In trying to be non-partisan, non-polemical, DI doesn't take stand for others (sunni ulemas under attack) in public. Have you seen them stake their position on Dr Jalali issue? Even if they may have stated similar position on khata ijtihadi, have they demanded release of Dr Jalali (which should appear odd given that several ulemas from India have been vocal in demanding Dr Jalali's release)? DI hardly has representation in tahaffuz and namoos-e-risalat movements, which even though being agitational, has served the purpose of checking the Pakistani establishment from slipping up on blasphemy act, qadianis etc. I know of few DI old-timers who left after feeling stifled by its insular approach.

    Bottomline is that for the sake of maslak/ummah, we need ulemas (outside DI) and DI-like tabligh organisations to be working in tandem, or at least refraining from friendly fires. In times when people like Munawwar Jamaati, Irfan Shah, PAQ et al are doing open khayanat, we direly need ulemas who are vocal defenders of aqeedah (and DI falls short here).

    As a non-partisan layman, I don't condone name calling or mutual belittling, and I so wish this affliction goes away.
    Ghulam Ali and Unbeknown like this.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it will not be an exaggeration to say that DI and madani channel have contributed immensely for the spread of alahazrat's name, his works, his na'ats, ulama of ahl e sunnat. [i sneezed just now, does it count as good fa'al].

    the books tamhid e iman and husam al haramayn, jaa' al-Haqq etc rudud are published by DI and in many cases they are the best editions to date.

    plus you will not find DI folks praying behind a deob or praising any of their ulama. you won't find a single reference to deo books/works/ulama in DI activities, rasa'il etc. i am not a DI member, not a murid of mawlana ilyas but let us learn to give credit where it is due.

    wAllahu a'alam.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    It should be noted that while the Sunni commentator is right that tablighis and tarık zaleel are like taqiyyabaz Rawafid and munafiqs hiding there beliefs, DI wears it's Sunniyat and Ridawiyyat on the sleeve and never hides it despite their non-political and non-polemic approach.
    Ghulaam, Ghulam Ali and Brother Barry like this.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    What a post!
    Ghulam Ali, Unbeknown and AbdalQadir like this.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    People against DI keep forgetting the actual reason DI was formed.

    Like countries have armies, navies, air forces to counter the effects of their respective enemies' respective forces, same case here.

    It's idiotic to say we don't need an air force because they anyway mainly strike targets on ground, and we have an army for that.

    Your larger machine and we are all components example is very apt.

    DI was formed specifically to counter the effects of the devbandi menace of tablighi Jamat and the wahabi nuisance of their own dawah by young disillusioned boys.

    DI is only aimed at tackling the common man on the street and offering him a Sunni dawah & tabligh so that he doesn't get eaten by wolves.

    Actually, the devs themselves are against tablighi Jamat for not following khanqah style mureedi, madrasas style Ifta, zameel style polemic "rebuttals" and so on. Listen to this below leaked audio from tarık zaleel to get a feel for what their tablighi Jamat is about, and maybe the anti-DI folks might appreciate their modus operandi somewhat


    will reply to some of the other posts re FC AJ etc later
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    everyone wants everyone else to do everything. if they are not doing something, they are criticised for it.

    other than DI, no other sunni organisation is working at the grassroots level. teaching basic aqidah, namaz-rozah, etc. [ofc SDI, which is anyway an offshoot of DI even if the SDI brothers vehemently deny it]. why don't all these critics of DI come down to the streets and gather people and work with them? is it possible for them to do it?

    DI have their flaws - and they too behave like a cult, but like everybody, they are doing some part of work; shouldering an important responsibility.

    again and again i insist on reading those books - for they contain anecdotes, insights and advice from great men.

    we must not think of building a new machine, or taking control of the machine or being the machine itself. we must think of ourselves as a small cog in a complex and a huge machine that requires many components - and acknowledging that it is not possible for any one wheel to be the sole and whole driver of the machine.

    once we identify our place, we should diligently try to do our job. yes, some cogs behave erratically, misaligned or damaged - but so long as they remain in the machine doing their job even if they are inefficient, we should continue to work alongside.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  11. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    I don't agree with Di myself on many things and I understand that many Ulama may not find their methods to their taste but to use their being non sectarian on paper as a excuse to label them sullah kulli and murtad I find disgusting.

    Not forgetting his false allegations in the first video I posted.
  12. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    DI's non-partisanship and avoidance of open/strong views against deobandi/rafidhis etc. has never been popular with polemic-minded ulemas of subcontinent.

    From Mufti Muneeb ur-Rahman to Huzoor Taj us-Shariah to Mufti Fazl, several ulemas have voiced their reservations against DI and Mawlana Ilyas Attari. It may sound churlish/petty at times, and justified at other (times).

    I personally don't like partisanship, dogmatism and such open airing of differences, but that's the ground reality. It's clearly a case of "my way or the highway" approach; and hardly anyone is above board in this regard. Even with such rife disunity (and enemies taking open advantage of it), our religious leaders haven't learnt better.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  13. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    Here in this video FC accused Di of being Sullah kulli and murtad because they are on paper non sectarian. He takes that to mean that they agree everyone from every sect is correct and then rambles against their channel etc.

    His language is just as bad as irfani Mia's.

    Again he needs to publicly repent for these unjust allegations against someone who is of correct Aqeeda.
    Ghulaam likes this.
  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    The speaker critiquing Mufti Fazl Chishti is partisan and clearly belongs to Dr Jalali camp. I am not promoting factionalism, but simply reading the situation. Is speaker's view a coloured (due to partisanship) opinion or is it factually correct? From far and outside, it appears that there's a history/undercurrent of animosity between 2 sides. Sad truth is that people these days promote factional views rather than present balanced/complete picture; everybody is grinding their own axe. So AQ is probably justified in taking speaker's claims about Mufti sahab's shiddat (in the absence of full details and supporting evidences) with a pinch of salt.

    As I said before (on the evidence of his recent lecture videos), Mufti Fazl may appear trenchant, less tactful and "old-fashioned" at times, but there is no denying his ability to marshal facts and articulate suitable response. On recent matters (khata ijtihadi, Pir Mihr Ali Shah's ibarat, yazeed etc.), his arguments are clear and self-consistent unlike several others who have proffered their views. I have also found him very honest/rigorous with facts, sources and owning his own errors (as can be seen here, where he issues a corrigenda to his own recent book). His recent fatwa on showering notes attest to his affiliation to the maslak.

    Of late, Mufti sahab has moved on from referring Dr Jalali as Dr Lahori to Dr Ashraf. He takes dim view of Allama Ghulam Rasool Saeedi, but he is probably justified in doing so given latter's numerous lapses. Mufti sahab seems a strong opponent of colonial mindset, modern education, "yahoodi agenda" etc., but that's hardly enough to accuse him for extreme views. This would probably open doors for similar charges against ulemas of yore, who stuck to traditional ways of life.

    What actually is his case against modern schooling is probably there in the video that I linked earlier (but is beyond my comprehension).
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  15. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    This is what's actually written in the booklet Aadab e Madina IMG-20201017-WA0001.jpg IMG-20201017-WA0002.jpg
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it might appear out of place but please bear with me. it is immensely necessary to read books on adab of ilm from the very beginning. it will help one keep their head down. i have compiled them in the ridawi student pack.

    these books are vaccinations against hundreds of viruses that attack ulama. every student and scholar should not only read these books, but keep reading them from time to time.

    some of these are short monographs that one can finish in a couple of hours.

    ADAB books in RAR: adab.rar

    Ghulaam likes this.
  17. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    Although I think FC has done a good job in pulling up Irfani Mia and company on their shenanigans.

    He has in the past attributed clear lies against Maulana Ilyas Qadiri. He even compared him to Ashraf thanvi devbandi.

    I've never heard that he's repented for those lies and I believe like neefa rafizi of pindi he should publicly repent and apologies for these things.
    Ghulaam likes this.
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    interestingly, that is what will be expected from mufti fazl sahib. as long as people are firm on sunni aqa'id, fiqh issues should be treated as admissible difference of opinion. yeh hamara fatwa hai, ye unka hai.
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it would be zulm to attribute the critic mufti sahib of things that he did not say and then slam him.

    did he say that mufti fazl was an extremist? just asking. perhaps i didn't hear properly.

    mufti sahib says: "mufti fazl chishti sahib ahl e sunnat wa jama'at ke bahut baDe aalim hain."

    "unki guftagu ke andar shiddat intiha darje ki hai"

    he is qualifying it as "strong speech" or "harsh" in his speech, but you are generalising it to 'extremist'.

    mahlan bhai, mahlan.
    Ghulaam likes this.
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    unfair accusation. there are many times we do not 'expose' the flaws of ulama and just a hint given indicating that we do not agree with everything he says.

    i do not know about the younger mufti sahib either. but attacking him just because mufti fazl chishti is the hero du jour and anyone who criticises him must be jealous or bear hatred towards him, is difficult to accept.

    mufti fazl chishti in one of his talks said that chaman zaman had more knowledge than dr. asif jalali. going by two books of chaman zaman, i was wondering how did he come to this conclusion. if those two books are indeed written by chaman zaman, (and mufti fazl mentions them both) he comes about as incapable of putting 2 and 2 together. absurd arguments and logical fallacies galore, a bit like "through the looking glass".

    fair question. it would shine if it weren't clouded by insinuations and accusations of jealousy.

    again jumping the gun.

    the availability of books today are maybe 100 times greater than say 20 years. and PDFs being easily available have given unprecedented access to knowledge. to tell the truth, many earlier ulama did not have access to so many books (except those who had personal libraries and/or attached themselves to madaris with big libraries). but their thinking was clear.

    while we all have a tendency to bring as many quotes as possible from various works (usually to indicate that it is not an isolated position), merely quoting from dozens of works is only the first level. much like people doing cut-n-paste from here and there. the higher levels would entail one to know the positions of the author, his other works, his inclinations, whether his positions changed in later works, what others have said about him/his work/his positions. this is still about riwayah, which like a boat. the more the planks the bigger the boat, and more chances of stability. dirayah is like navigating the seas. one learns over a period of time.

    in that sense the other mufti sahib (criticising mufti fazl) is not off the mark saying merely lots of knowledge is not sufficient. i would take it as a generic comment and even an oblique criticism of mufti fazl. but one should not take it as jealousy unless there is demonstrable proof for the same.

    ever since mufti fazl's talks are being posted on these issues, i have sort of stepped back. he appears to be a capable mufti and is presenting it well. my 2c are not needed. yet, when i watched the irfan shah critique (of the tasleem sabri interview) i felt he could have touched on some more issues. mufti fazl has himself says in that clip that a comprehensive analysis would show more problems.

    being judgemental (on cursory glance) dismissive and condescending of peers (english peer) is not the way of our ulama.

    sub'HanAllah, this is also a prophecy fulfilled. RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said "books will be abundant, knowledge scarce". you will see people sitting in front of huge libraries but make childish mistakes.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    did he say that? where is YOUR logic? he only said that he has some 'strong opinions' - shiddat - not extremist views which usually is a translation of ghuluww.

    shiddat would be: very strict, extremely conservative, tough, unreasonable, impractical etc. and in a proper context even extremist can be a possible translation.

    why have you forgotten your own advice of muridin not wanting to listen to any criticism of the 'peer'?

    the other mufti sahib answered a question and if you are unbiased, you will have to admit that he answered it in a scholarly manner.

    he openly accepted that mufti fazl is a sunni scholar. he indicated that he has lots of knowledge. and he hinted that he has some 'extremist' opinions. and he moved on. it appears that he was replying to queries.

    but you DEMAND all the details here and now or 'keep silent'. would you do the same for mufti fazl sahib? for every comment of his "lahori doctor" or others whom he addresses in a supremely condescending manner. as sherkhan said, if this is limited to only deviants it is fine, but if he speaks about fellow ulama in the same tone, he can probably rationalise it, but it is certainly not the manner of ulama.


    وعين الرضا عن كل عيب كليلة
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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