what will that change? who's going to decide something is or isn't comprehensive? as long as there is no authority to enforce laws, no over-arching body whose consensus will be adhered to by all sunnis atleast, what difference can it make. You will still have your mufti muneeburs and your mushahid alis and all the rest disagreeing on whether it is or is not sulh. We have ijma', we have mu'tamad aqwaal, we have mutawatir ahadith. That hasn't kept people from claiming all sorts of things. Meanwhile, we need to atleast call out what's blatantly wrong today - save those you can - don't wait for the day that an agreed upon definition of sulh is announced.
actually, i did listen to both those things, but only half heartedly and in parts, while working, driving, kids yammering at my head etc. and honestly i don't enjoy these mawlana soap operas to watch again, where every episode from every side is a cliffhanger for the common man. don't get me wrong bro, i'm not refuting you or defending Muneeb saab. i dislike him enough tbh and still haven't recovered from that Hassan Haseebur episode. my point really is at a generic level - i fail to see why on either side, no one can come up with actual working definitions and guidelines for sulh kulliyat once and for all. like it or not, we (desis and desi Sunnis) at our current state, are not capable to build a body of case law where we can correlate and refer to past precedents. even if we were, we still need some well defined statutes too. if we don't do this, even when someone (on any side) is right, it won't take much for the other side to convince the awam. although Mufti Akmal's talk is generic, if implied in this context, can sway a neutral Sunni to be pro-Muneebur just as easily as Mufti Mushahid's video will sway another Sunni to be anti-Muneebur. extend this further - will every mawlana get it right every time - those making allegations of sulh kulliyat and those defending it as diplomacy by Sunnis for the sake of Sunniyat? my interest in all this is that somehow someone adds crisp fiqh rulings and objective guidelines to the topic overall (lobbying, activism, PR, Sunni/Muslim political interests, sulh kulliyat etc.) maybe that's wishful thinking and too much to expect from our leaders.
did you listen to his ta'ziyat of the rafidi? do let me know your thoughts. also, the doctor/mufti, listen to his 20 minutes of unbearable drivel an let us know how much you agree with. --- I think there are red lines to every diplomacy and muneeb sb left it far behind. The only justification I can think of is threat to life or property or some form of significant harm. If it's none of these then it's sulh kulliyat by every definition you can come up with. wa Allahu a'alam
it's not about a sophisticated, Sunni psyop that will help us win back Quds and restore Sher Shah Suri's saltanat, or about duress from tyrants. in fact, both these scenarios have very well defined rulings in fiqh. we need guidelines and rules and regulations for operating openly in dealings with other peoples - for both - promoting and lobbying for our specific interests, as well as general public benefit across sects and religions (safety of Pakistan, national issues etc.) no brother, we need a course on Muslim and Sunni Muslim diplomacy too. we need to dig out the ahkam based on Seerah of the Prophet 3laihis salam & sahaba, anecdotes from former Muslim sultans, awliyaa etc. - how they dealt with christians, jews, mubradi3is etc. we are not living in the age of Khilafatur Rashidah or Muslim Sultanates, so we need to apply the rules of "diplomacy" (a term in our times, but the function itself is age old) on present day public figures lobbying for Muslim/Sunni interests (as sad as it is, these public figures the substitutes for sultans, in our times) - how to ensure our interests when interacting with other peoples. this is why we need a detailed set of rules and regulations for such interactions. so that we compare apples to apples. and catch people on the right charges, not the wrong ones. there's no use being penny wise and pound foolish. i'm no defender of Muneebur Rehman. quite the opposite. see my post # 4 here - https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/recklessness-and-ignorance-jahalat-of-a-mutasawwif.14445/ post # 17 here - https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/hamza-and-bin-bayyah-with-qadiyanis.13623/ (i didn't rant so long on his wishing merry xmas fatwa as we all had our fill on the other threads on the issue, but his fatwa looked like it was copy pasted from bin bayya's, and i oppose it strongly) i think there's a difference between "diplomatic" behavior/statement with kafirs/deviants versus active or actual endorsement and promotion of heresies; and we need to catch people out on the latter, not the former. we should know where that line is. see, all the comparisons you've drawn, they're all actual promotions of a position/s rather than just casual behavior like sharing a stage or something- obaidullah - called rama as imam of hind (a ghazal by "Allamah" Iqbal carries the same title and deals with the same thing) yaqoubi & ghazi bin Talal - actually distorting ahadith and twisting the Islamic narrative amman message - i don't remember too well now, but that can actually be a passible exercise in diplomacy, the main thing there was let's all not do blanket takfeers of these major sects Sunni (sufis, Asharis, wahabis, all counted as Sunnis for political identification purposes), shia, ibadi as none of the scholars of the past have done such blanket takfeers (i may be wrong, there might be some devil hidden in some details). the actual filth was in the "A Common Word" and the open letter preceding it. tahirul - made incredibly heretical and blasphemous claims - which were responded to by Abu Hasan in Minhaji Fata Morgana (later on, i discovered, tahir was not original in his heresies either, he only improvised a bit. the same ugly claim re the Najran delegation was made by elements of the jifry and keller team of the 'A Common Word' significantly before tahir!) again, my whole rant here is that we need a working definition and guidelines re what is sulh kulliyat and what is not; or where is that line between "diplomacy" shown by not just seerah's of elders, but also actual fiqh rulings; and active and actual endorsement/promotion of heresies. if ulama don't undertake this academic project necessary for our times, then we will harm ourselves more than anyone else - as theoretically speaking, every Sunni will be the boy who cried sulh kulli for some other Sunni, as no one in our times is pure of intermingling with all sorts of people. absolutely no one. i'm not even talking about duress (some bjp goons cornered you in the market) or helpless situations (some qadiani ends up being your line manager). i'm talking about everyday voluntary relations that are NEEDED to maintain our interests as well as present ourselves favorably. this is an ongoing exercise, where the result is greater than the sum of all the parts.
I totally disagree with this speaker. People need to watch this and understand the implications before rushing to exonerate muneeb sab as some highly practical sunni warrior operating clandestinely in enemy territory for the benefit of Sunnis. I can understand that people have to say some things under duress, sometimes they are caught off guard and make slips that could have been avoided had they known before hand. But this is beyond all belief. Diplomacy? don't tell me. And this person is not even saying he said it under duress - he is just saying everything is fine and dandy. I don't know what all is going on with mufti muneeb and Pakistani politics - he may have an excuse of compulsion but what about all those defending him? is every single Pakistani speaker/podcaster/mufti under the same compulsion? This is same as obaidullah khan Azmi. One man is excused in the name of compulsion, then he is painted a hero, then a swarm comes along claiming there was nothing wrong in the first places. Then they will quote incidents from the Seerah mutahharah out of context. If all this is fine please stop finding faults with Sh. Yaqubi and Amman Message people or Jordan Prince.
596-Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman par Kufr ka Fatwa ! reply to Mufti Mushahid kazmi by Dr Mufti Ali Nawaz I think this is a good reply to this whole issue.
Another point of @AbdalQadir, which is salient is about being a 'problem announcer'. Are Sunnis more aware of 'issues' after it was amplified by the likes of Mufti Mushahid. Has wisdom been applied here? Sunni resources and time have been drained in these Intra-Sunni issues, and on every level we've been left behind. This issue of Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman, reminds me a lot of the criticism faced by the likes of Shah Ahmad Noorani, who we are still yet to replace. It comes down to a lack of wisdom being deployed. Too many make excuses for themselves that they won't permit for others
Another point of @AbdalQadir, which is salient is about being a 'problem announcer'. Are Sunnis more aware of 'issues' after it was amplified by the likes of Mufti Mushahid. Has wisdom been applied here? Sunni resources and time have been drained in these Intra-Sunni issues, and on every level we've been left behind. This issue of Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman, reminds me a lot of the criticism faced by the likes of Shah Ahmad Noorani, who we are still yet to replace. It comes down to a lack of wisdom being deployed.
At 5:30, when Mufti Akmal said is he subtly pointing towards the sukuut of many scholars during the Salman Miyan incident?
Ulama like Mufti Muneeb have to find a middle ground. Unlike in the past, everything is photographed and recorded these days so one has to watch one's every move. It is inevitable that some time or another, ulama will end up having to associate with heretics, especially those like Mufti Muneeb. I think the operative word is necessity. Do it when necessary. Keep the interaction formal. Make your rules clear such as you're all allowed to pray behind me, I'm not allowed to pray behind you. Did Mufti Muneeb have to attend the devbandi "mosque" inauguration? Did he have to make taziyat for the dead rafidi or devbandi? Like AQ said, let's set the ground rules. Interaction will happen. But it can't be carte blanche. It ain't no free for all and deviants can't be treated like Sunnis. We won't allow it and we will always call it out and the concerned parties can then explain themselves. We can't stay silent because then the disease spreads. Mufti e Azam has an excellent fatwa on issues of common concern that Shaykh aH should translate and explain.
On your last point, to be fair, Mufti Akmal said that people of Mufti Muneen ur Rehman's position should have strong evidences for their modus operandi. I agree with @AbdalQadir that we're living in a very different world to the world known to Ala Hazrat. The principles never change but how they're applied is subject to the needs of the time. That was the genuis of Ala hazrat, he understood the need of his time was to push back the spread of Wahabism. The proof is in the pudding because even the deos had to a least 'moderate their stance publicly' to survive.
we need to ask the ulama to define sulh kulliyat please. perhaps introduce a new discipline or a text book in the much coveted Darse Nizami. Here's a title - Halal & Haram Social Interactions of Sunni Ulama - With General Public As Well As Scholars of Other Sects & Religions. Learn independent critical thinking and tafaqquh. Ala Hazrat himself might not be pleased with rattafication of his fatawa without any critical thinking vis a vis current contexts. He certainly didn't do it himself with the fatawa of his elders! The subcontinent people like me have opened our eyes in is different than the subcontinent our kids have seen. The subcontinent our parents, grandparents, and Ala Hazrat lived in is a different planet compared to present day India. Can any of us approach the "ulama" of the Haramayn for a fatwa on this or that issue like Ala Hazrat did? Yes wahabiyat and rafziyat is the same, but again, the wahabis and rafzis of our times too are very different than those of Ala Hazrat's times. How many of us can put our hands on our hearts and say our immediate and extended family is full of exclusively Sunnis? Other than those born in scholarly homes, we all know the state of the common folks and their families. And are the Sunnis really Sunnis? Is your average Sunni on the street the same as the average Sunni of Ala Hazrat's times in terms of aqidah? Is every devbandi on the street well versed with the works of his "hakeemul ummat"? How many Sunni common people do you know who have read a full two books of aqidah and fiqh? How many devbandis and tablighis by the same token? Yes DI and Faizane Sunnat are doing good. (tablighis are lost with fazaile aamaal) mostly already are. even those things are falling apart, other than DI/SDI kind of grassroots efforts or the few knowledge oriented teachers like Asrar Rashid. what tadris? what khutbah? - rehashed to the nth time stories of karamats and blasting of wahabis and devbandis and notekhwani with naarebazi thrown in just for emotional effect. --- this is not a defense or offense of anyone. just a call for ulama to be more proactive in providing practical and sustainable solutions for themselves as well as Sunni awam. be proactive problem solvers, not problem announcers! if someone thinks Muneebur Rehman is sulh kulli, he needs to provide a solution to the kind things you have addressed, PR with other religious and political entities etc. if Muneebur Rehman thinks he's right, he's gotta provide a robust justification for his modus operandi, other than one liners here and there.
Mufti Akmal Sahab defends Mufti Muneeb ur Rahman, suggesting that they are compelled to maintain a degree of diplomacy (Sulleh Kulliyat?) at the political level, for the greater good of ASWJ as not doing so will cause Immense harm There is indeed a certain level of truth to this, as anyone who fully adheres to Ala Hazrat’s strict Anti-Budmazhab fatwas is unlikely to be allowed to remain in such positions. So, what's the solution? If scholars completely distance themselves from politics and governmental roles, such as those in finance, banking, or Ru’yat-e-Hilal committees, these positions will fall entirely at the mercy of Devbandis. So Is mufti Akmal correct or should the Ulama really abandon all such positions and concern themselves only with Tablīgh, Imamah, Khutbah & Tadrīs etc (Like Dawateislami)?
I do not follow Pakistan's politics or who has been in n out of government so appreciate the correction. Mufti sab wrestled with that pig for too long and you can see the dirt. I don't think there is fault in his Minhaj but his diplomatic manner and not-offending tone angers me. As a Mufti you got to speak straight and aim for the Kafirs Kufr boldly. This walking on egg shells, o ill offend them, o this tone is above my worthy status education ...
Salam alaykum What Mufti Sab wrote is neither here nor there. He seema to be insinuating, Barelwi N Deobandi is new division in foundation both are Sunni n Hanafi. Secondly he seems to be attempting to be unbiased judge and advising accordingly without being explicit n blasting Deobandi misguidance N is not calling spade a spade. Perks of be government ka Ghulam is that you have to say inclusive bs. Bichara has to keep his job. This is why our akabir stayed clear of government officials cause they knew to appease leaders n people they will sell their iman. Not that Mufti Sab has sold his iman but he is just being diplomatic. In conclusion, this insinuation is zann not sarri. I give him the benefit of doubt but dislike his job bachanay wala tone.
Sayyid Sayfullah is usually better. This is a weak reply. Whataboutism and fallacies. He himself is agreeing on many points that the objections stand. Yes, one point that does seem fair is that Mufti Muneeb didn't write Devs are Sunni, it appears he said in urf they are known as Sunni Hanafi. I couldn't find page 138 of volume 4 to check the pages.
