Mufti Muneeb Ur Rehman reading Namaz behind Deobandi Molvi

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by ExWahabi, Sep 21, 2015.

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  1. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    How are wahabi/ghayr muqallideen lumped in with the likes of quranists etc in that fatwa? Did Imam Ahmad Rida consider salafis as apostate or am I reading this wrong? Or was it just a particular group amongst them?

    Jazak Allah khair
  2. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Well-Known Member

  3. ExWahabi

    ExWahabi New Member

    Sidi Abu Hasan can you please reply to my last two comments

  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    sidi I did not call for following one's own whims - note that I have mentioned 'daif opinion' - so not wanting to leave the protection of taqlid.

    From what I have seen/heard, sometimes, when a situation is acute, daif opinions are given consideration - especially at times when you are left with no option other than taqlid baa'd al-amal. What goes without saying is, it is the mufti who will make the call.

    Anyways, I accept your point regarding salat al-jumuah.

    jazakAllahu khayran

    Attached Files:

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    at the risk of being written a munafiq in a book that is not altered?

    the reason ulama - particularly hanafi ulama insist on jama'at of jumu'ah is because of the dire warnings for those who miss it without a valid excuse. [people on whom jumu'ah is not fard such as travellers, sick people etc are exempt.]
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    my personal opinion is that the awaam should be kept out of bidatis' mosques even if we have to rely on the weakest opinion in a given madhhab.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I asked a shafi mufti and he confirmed what I have written below. Imam Ramali (raHimahullah) says that it is better to pray behind a heretic when there is no other jama'at available than praying alone whereas Imam Ibn Hajar Makki (raHimahullah) says that it praying alone is better and that in such a case even jumuah is not fard. The fatwa in the shafi madhhab can be based on either of these opinions.

    He also said that alahazrat ('alayhirraHmah) too quotes Imam Khayr al-din Ramali (who said that praying behind a heretic is makruH) and then writes, "the shafi Imam Shams al-din Ramali concurs" (paraphrased).

    The words 'padh le' in the fatwa below, the mufti sahib said they are mubham (ambiguous) and can mean wujub or ibaaha. He said it's better to ask a hanafi mufti in this regard.

    In regard to azhari miyan's QA audios posted below he said that hazrat must be speaking about those badmazhab who have crossed into kufr.

    I too have heard of other hanafi muftis giving the fatwa of haram. I think they are taking deobandis/salafis to be those who have reached kufr by definition or else they are using sadd al-dharay.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  8. ExWahabi

    ExWahabi New Member

    I asked a Mufti from India about praying behind a "deobandi Imam" and I clarified that I have not seen him defending the kufr of his elders . He replied that you must not pray behind him and pray your Zuhr incase you can't get Jumaah in a sunni mosque.
    However the stance of Mufti Akmal sounds a bit different where he says that its wajib upon you to pray Jumaah behind such an individual [incase u cant find a sunni mosque] unless you have seen him that he believes in kufr. He says the ruling remains the same whether there is a fatwa of kufr on the entire sect (like deobandi sect ?) or not .
    Now I find the two opinions contradictory
  9. Abu Hamza

    Abu Hamza Hanafi-Maturidi

    Abu Layth does not consider the ibaarat to be kufr. enough said.
  10. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    Abu Layths Ruling

    Attached Files:

  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    @abu Hasan

    praying behind a heretic who has not reached the level of irtidad, what is the hanafi ruling when no other jama'at is available?

    1. the wording of the snippet from bahar-e-shariat you posted below is declarative in nature, it does not enjoin one to actually pray behind a heretic

    2. the wording of fatawa ridawiyyah, though imperative in nature, it appears more of a suggestion than a command

    3. sidi Aqib's question is pertinent because both snippets use the tafzilis as an example of heretics behind whom prayer is valid but will have to be repeated and we know that alahazrat ('alayhiraHmah) has classed tafzil as a kahfif bid'ah. On the other hand, in the list of people behind whom salah is invalid, sadrush shari'ah ('alayhiraHmah) includes those who deny azab-e-qabr and we know that the mu'tazilites were not declared muratdd for espousing this aqida (i.e the majority have not even though some scholars might have). This begs the question, which type of heretics may be prayed behind even as a last resort?

    The reason for these questions is your following statement:

    1. For the hanafis, jama'ah is wajib (for the shafis it is sunnah)
    2. Praying behind a heretic is makruh tehreemi (for shafis, imam ibn hajar makki declares it haram while Imam ramali declares it makruh. I will still confirm and let you know)
    3. So there is an apparent contradiction: Praying behind (even) a heretic is wajib (wujub of jam'ah) and makruh tehreemi (because he is a heretic) and so it's i'aadah is wajib (because it's wajib to repeat a prayer which had become makruh tehreemi due to any reason). So, in a sentence, it would mean that praying and repeating are both wajib. Or that it is wajib to commit a makruh tehreemi and then wajib to compensate it.

    these questions are to demonstrate my confusion and definitely betray my lack of knowledge. bayyinu wa tu'jiru.

    jazakAllahu khayran
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I don't know about 'all Imams' but someone like jalandhari, one of the central faces of deobandism in Pakistan, not knowing the actual statements is an astronomical improbability.
    Ghulam Ali and Noori like this.
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    surely, the senior Sunni ulema of pakistan would also be knowing about this.

    what have they said about the matter?
  14. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    This needs to be defined......e.g. there will be some who know about the statements by having actually read and understood the original statements, there will be some who 'know' about the statements via their teachers in but in a distorted manner (e.g. teacher misrepresents the statements, tells students not to look into it, student never looks into it, etc.).

    Like one of the earlier comments, there are too many shades of grey.
  15. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    i.e. you're not 100% certain and yet are willing to conclude that

    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  16. BaghdadRaza

    BaghdadRaza New Member

    These are dangerous grounds, for such a high calibre 'scholar' to be pictured reading behind the devbandis. The wishy washy awaam need ammunition like this to make their claim to sullah Kullism.

    No wonder the community is the way it is, the leaders need to up their game. The UK would be a better place if we had more Syed Irfan Mashahdis and Asrar Rashids.
    Aqib alQadri likes this.
  17. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    The fatwa of kufr is for all those who know about the statements uttered by their elders and still do not consider them to be kufr.

    So the deobandi imams are all guilty of this and come under the ruling if kufr as it is unlikely for then not to know about the open kufr of their elders. The same applies to the awam who know about these statements and still don't find anything wrong with them.
  18. ExWahabi

    ExWahabi New Member

    Assalamu alaikum Brother. I am asking this question for the sake of clearing some of my doubts.
    We know it's kufr to knowingly read Namaz behind an individual who is a murtad. And it's makruh e tehreemi to read behind an innovator.
    When Alahazrat said that all deobandis are murtad, he was talking about the deobandis of his time who were well aware of the kufr of their elders.
    But nowadays many "deobandi" laymen are not aware of the blasphemies penned by their elders. So, we can't do balnket takfeer upon the masses who claim belonging to the deobandi sect.
    [[I think you have mentioned this in your book - The killer Mistake in a footnote ]]
    My question is that why our salah is invalid behind "deobandi" Imams whose kufr has not been established ie. it is not definitively known that they are aware and support the kufr of their elders. ? Also, is it kufr to read Salah behind such "deobandi" Imams?
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    see alahazrat's fatwa vol.8/p.440


    one should not gloss over the basis, the basic rule: makruh tahrimi behind a heretic not crossed kufr.
    we don't argue about heretics who are considered murtaddin.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  20. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    What do you make of the following answers given by Mufti Akhtar Raza Sahab (damat barakatuhum alAaliyah)?

    In summary, he answers that it is a sin, and the prayers are invalid (behind any heretic); and to purposely choose as an Imam, a heretic who has crossed the limits of Kufr, is of course, much worse.,com_ask/question_id,3566/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,10705/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,5970/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,3565/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,4006/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,4007/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,5641/view,question/,com_ask/question_id,8773/view,question/

    PS: I chose only a few of the many more answers from him, on this subject.

    I believe the snippet you posted is from Bahaar e Shariat, and that mentions "for example, Tafzeeli shias". Which other heretics is it OK to pray Jum'uah behind (and then repeat the Zohr)?

    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015

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